Force3

[wolfe_man]

What is going on with Force3?

Are they still producing their V2 umpire mask? There are none available on their website (not even a spot for it) and they're about out of stock everywhere else.  Is all stock going to MLB catchers now?

Does anyone have any insight into what's happening?  I feel like they've taken a huge step backwards after exploding onto the MLB scene a couple of years ago.  Their prices went up dramatically and now you can't find their stuff in stock anywhere (most places).

[Ump242]

What is going on with Force3?
Are they still producing their V2 umpire mask? There are none available on their website (not even a spot for it) and they're about out of stock everywhere else.  Is all stock going to MLB catchers now?
Does anyone have any insight into what's happening?  I feel like they've taken a huge step backwards after exploding onto the MLB scene a couple of years ago.  Their prices went up dramatically and now you can't find their stuff in stock anywhere (most places).

No clue, they have terrible customer service. I had ordered the inner thigh pad leggings and they sent me the baseball shorts, never replied to any of my 10 emails that I sent over the period of 1 year. Go to ump-attire.com. They seem to have them in stock. On OfferUp, I've put mine up for sale. Original pads, but I had the 2 parts of the mask powder coated matte black. They used to be painted with black gloss vinyl paint

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[wolfe_man]

Edited.

[Ump242]

What's it listed under on Offer Up?

https://offerup.co/WxsOsd38Yob

I put it up for $200, mind you I did pay $60 to get the powder coating done.

Replacement pads are about $45 on referee store, and $60 on ump attire.

I did wash, dry and sanitize them.

https://www.refereestore.com/force3-v2-defender-replacement-pads-blk/?gclid=CjwKCAjw0a-SBhBkEiwApljU0qSupivnhgu9RqtO0msQQ4wfMMyj3J5O8CIIyY13AFVI5657eNsAiRoCrosQAvD_BwE
https://www.ump-attire.com/Force-3-Umpire-Replacement-Mask-Pads/?page=1&perpage=36&cat=0&orderby=price%20desc&brand=&search=


I have to up price everything on that website or app if you will, because people keep low balling the hell out of me and there's just a certain price I won't go below. I believe that mask retails at like $200
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[tpatience]

10 hours ago, Ump242 said:

https://offerup.co/WxsOsd38Yob

I put it up for $200, mind you I did pay $60 to get the powder coating done.

Replacement pads are about $45 on referee store, and $60 on ump attire.

I did wash, dry and sanitize them.

https://www.refereestore.com/force3-v2-defender-replacement-pads-blk/?gclid=CjwKCAjw0a-SBhBkEiwApljU0qSupivnhgu9RqtO0msQQ4wfMMyj3J5O8CIIyY13AFVI5657eNsAiRoCrosQAvD_BwE
https://www.ump-attire.com/Force-3-Umpire-Replacement-Mask-Pads/?page=1&perpage=36&cat=0&orderby=price%20desc&brand=&search=


I have to up price everything on that website or app if you will, because people keep low balling the hell out of me and there's just a certain price I won't go below. I believe that mask retails at like $200
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I’m coming to get those shoes next week lol. See you in a little 

[JimKirk]

On 4/5/2022 at 1:34 PM, wolfe_man said:

What is going on with Force3?

Are they still producing their V2 umpire mask? There are none available on their website (not even a spot for it) and they're about out of stock everywhere else.  Is all stock going to MLB catchers now?

Does anyone have any insight into what's happening?  I feel like they've taken a huge step backwards after exploding onto the MLB scene a couple of years ago.  Their prices went up dramatically and now you can't find their stuff in stock anywhere (most places).

I have some insight. The synopsis is they have experienced a great deal of growth, as you mentioned, plus they have been in the process of moving and settling into a new hq/office/warehouse space and on top of that dealing with the same supply chain issues everyone is having.

Even with that, stock has actually been available continuously for us on most things such as:

-Drylo Ball Bags

-Ultimate Socks

-Protective Tights

-Shin Guard Bags

-Replacement Mask and CP Harnesses

Some items were unavailable for only a short time but were replenished for us in mid-February where our stock continues to be solid.

-Ultimate Gear Bags

-Mask Bags

-Shoe Bags

-Laundry Bags

-Throat Guards

-Mask Visors

We had been out of their mini gear bag for a longer time and just received a good amount of stock last week.

The protective gear, as you’ve noted, has no doubt been more difficult to keep in stock. That has been at least partially due to pent-up demand.

In mid-February we received a shipment of CPs, Shin Guards and Defender Masks (Black-Black and Silver-Black). For those items, the CPs sold out the same day. We had a very large list waiting to be notified and within 8 hours they were gone!

We received an even larger shipment of shin guards, but those sold out in a few weeks. The masks lasted a bit longer - maybe a month. The Force3 gear just moves on a different level. I recommend a “get-it-while-you-can” approach.

Several containers recently arrived there and more of these out of stocks, including the masks, are expected to be shipped soon to us, if not already, per Hunter (our buyer) who works closely with them.

I would just advise anyone to get on our notify me lists for any of these items (and any other item we might have out currently), and then jump on the item as soon as you get the email. Our system is completely automated, so as soon as a quantity for a product is received in our warehouse, it is then updated online and emails are instantly triggered.

From a service perspective, I can only speak for ourselves. We are OCD about making sure our website is up-to-date and that if something is running remotely low on stock, unless discontinued, it’s already on order from the supplier. That’s why we retail and service gear & apparel and don’t manufacture it. Manufacturers have their own set of issues that I am happy to not have.

Hope that helps. I will add Jason Klein and their new CEO Steven Goldsmith paid a nice visit to us last summer. Mr. Goldsmith was the former CEO of Brookstone (THE Brookstone - super smart and impressive guy). I know they are working hard to play catch-up to growth (and supply chain) challenges.

[wolfe_man]

3 hours ago, JimKirk said:

I have some insight. The synopsis is they have experienced a great deal of growth, as you mentioned, plus they have been in the process of moving and settling into a new hq/office/warehouse space and on top of that dealing with the same supply chain issues everyone is having.

Even with that, stock has actually been available continuously for us on most things such as:

-Drylo Ball Bags

-Ultimate Socks

-Protective Tights

-Shin Guard Bags

-Replacement Mask and CP Harnesses

Some items were unavailable for only a short time but were replenished for us in mid-February where our stock continues to be solid.

-Ultimate Gear Bags

-Mask Bags

-Shoe Bags

-Laundry Bags

-Throat Guards

-Mask Visors

We had been out of their mini gear bag for a longer time and just received a good amount of stock last week.

The protective gear, as you’ve noted, has no doubt been more difficult to keep in stock. That has been at least partially due to pent-up demand.

In mid-February we received a shipment of CPs, Shin Guards and Defender Masks (Black-Black and Silver-Black). For those items, the CPs sold out the same day. We had a very large list waiting to be notified and within 8 hours they were gone!

We received an even larger shipment of shin guards, but those sold out in a few weeks. The masks lasted a bit longer - maybe a month. The Force3 gear just moves on a different level. I recommend a “get-it-while-you-can” approach.

Several containers recently arrived there and more of these out of stocks, including the masks, are expected to be shipped soon to us, if not already, per Hunter (our buyer) who works closely with them.

I would just advise anyone to get on our notify me lists for any of these items (and any other item we might have out currently), and then jump on the item as soon as you get the email. Our system is completely automated, so as soon as a quantity for a product is received in our warehouse, it is then updated online and emails are instantly triggered.

From a service perspective, I can only speak for ourselves. We are OCD about making sure our website is up-to-date and that if something is running remotely low on stock, unless discontinued, it’s already on order from the supplier. That’s why we retail and service gear & apparel and don’t manufacture it. Manufacturers have their own set of issues that I am happy to not have.

Hope that helps. I will add Jason Klein and their new CEO Steven Goldschmidt paid a nice visit to us last summer. Mr. Goldsmith was the former CEO of Brookstone (THE Brookstone - super smart and impressive guy). I know they are working hard to play catch-up to growth (and supply chain) challenges.

Thanks Jim, very helpful. I noticed your team almost always has stock.

FWIW, I’m all F3 now (shins, CP and mask) and was really hoping they’re staying around.  

[gnhbua93]

Oh yeah, that's the same former Brookstone CEO under whose leadership the brand went bankrupt and cost many people their jobs.

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[gnhbua93]

https://www.retaildive.com/news/brookstone-files-for-bankruptcy-with-plans-to-sell-itself/529217/

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[Marcus6]

I could read Jim’s experiences about this industry all day. Thanks Jim!

[Ump242]

Imagine this, I'm actually moving away from forced products, not all of them, but the main ones umps use

Cant speak for the shin guards, but I took a straight shot from this varsity pitcher last month that the batter missed and catcher was off by a smidge, fell the full shot to my upper left chest, I immediately started using my Wilson Platinum again, never had that issue with that one.   Since then I picked up the all Star cobalt, which has more lower torso coverage and is super light (padding is detachable and washable, dope!)

 

Took 2 shots this week from JV pitchers and seems alot of schools have brand new catchers this week... 🤔 And didn't feel a thing, very nice product that all star cobalt 

[MadMax]

Business isn't truly about products and sales, business is about relationships. I saw this – 

18 hours ago, JimKirk said:

Jason Klein and their new CEO Steven Goldschmidt paid a nice visit to us...

– coming as soon as MLB endowed Force3 with the "Official" logo-seal-of-approval. One-man / small-staff outfits don't get that sort of official recognition; corporations do, because by their very definition – corporate – there exists a body of members functioning in a coordinated operation. And, invariably, they all want input, or at least to feel like they have input. 

Once the big dogs are at the feed trough, the little dogs (and puppies) are inevitably going to be nudged out, pushed aside, and feel neglected; it's just the nature of the beast(s). And MLB is a very big pack of very big dogs. So, Force3's not going to be able to provide individualized customer service on their products any more, especially our (umpire) walking paradox of products (we want to feel that we have individual expressions of personality, but yet, we adhere to this absurdly strict and maddening dichotomy of uniformity: of appearance, of physical movement, of calls and signals, etc.). As such, Force3 – like many other producers – is going to offload that customer service interface to its anointed vendors... with Ump-Attire being the most prominent. 

Look at Team Wendys. They make probably the most advanced foam products in North America, and they cannot sell their umpire mask pads directly thru their website. It's just too burdensome on their staff and resources and not cost effective. Frankly, I'm surprised, delighted, relieved and thankful TW still continues to produce mask pads at all! Instead of selling them on their site, the mask pads are sold thru select designated vendors... again, like Ump-Attire. 

Breadth (of sales) and volume does not equal quality, as much as certain producers want to give that impression. Look at Smitty's and Wilson as best examples – those products are sold everywhere. 

The one thing that concerns me (as an unaffiliated gear expert) with Force3's elevation of status is the heightened potential for stagnation, especially in their umpire products. Not so much the masks (because everyone can see those on TV, and the product line is shared with catchers) or shinguards (how many ways can you ruin near-perfection, unintentionally?), but that CP... they (still!) don't have it right yet. Klein embarked on a noble path, but it was a flawed path, and the flaws – like thorns and weeds along the way – are growing out of control and will become a path-choking thicket you can't navigate out of. The (apparent) lack of external plastic plates is one of these flaws, but the other, more damaging flaw exists because of how the CP is structured. It doesn't truly fit and make conforming contact to the wide variety of torso shapes that are using it. As such, if there is a gap between the CP and the wearer's body, the energy of the ball will simply carry through the CP and propel it (the CP – foam, fabric, plate & all!) to impact against the wearer's body. It's simple physics at play. The vaunted, highly-advanced Kevlar that is within the CP isn't even being engaged! It's being, in a sense, ignored!!

11 hours ago, Ump242 said:

but I took a straight shot from this varsity pitcher last month that the batter missed and catcher was off by a smidge, fell the full shot to my upper left chest,

Imagine holding a square of 1/2" plywood about 1/4"-1/2" off of your chest skin. Have a 5 oz. baseball hit it at 85 mph. What's doing the resistance? Your hand and arm muscles, keeping the plywood from touching your chest! Now, let's suspend that 1/2" of plywood from a cable, like a clothesline, and have you stand immediately behind it but not touching it, about 1/4" - 1/2" away. Keep your hands down at your side, you scaredy-cat! Now let's fire that 5 oz baseball at the plywood at 85 mph. What's going to happen? The baseball will propel the plywood against your body! 

And therein lies the problem – in order to counteract that physical reaction, the plywood has to be denser (heavier). It would have to start treading into the lead-lined aprons they have you wear during X-Ray film sessions. And we don't want to wear this heavy, dense smock for 3 hours, do we? Heck no! So how do we fix it? @The Short Umpire, @tpatience, @wolfe_man, myself (if I omitted someone, I'm not doing so intentionally) – we're all constantly tinkering with CPs in the efforts of achieving the best fit, best function, and subsequently best results. This has to be done on an almost case-by-case basis. Certainly, All-Star took a modular approach in their construct of the Cobalt. Douglas has the potential to do the same, but the reliance on the one-piece upholstery foam vest as the foundation for the CP does it absolutely no favors. Schutt-Adams relies upon the carapace to act as a true exoskeleton, and the TPU-EVA foam vest attaches to it (granted, with some of the shoddiest velcro imaginable). Until +POS fell off a cliff, their Cobra CP held the potential to be a breakout star, with its use of a HDPE carapace (like the Cobalt) and multi-layer laminate foam. 

Force3 has to rethink their CP if they're going to have any hope of its successful continuation. 

[wolfe_man]

1 hour ago, MadMax said:

Force3 has to rethink their CP if they're going to have any hope of its successful continuation. 

This is what scares me a bit... what if F3 just does away with all other products except their HSM and mask?  That is what they are truly most known for and are supplying to MLB.

We all love their shins also, but we aren't a big enough market like MLB in itself.   Is it more cost-effective for F3 (now making the jump to big-time) to keep producing the other umpire gear when the money seems to be in the masks?

[MadMax]

24 minutes ago, wolfe_man said:

We all love their shins also, but we aren't a big enough market like MLB in itself.   Is it more cost-effective for F3 (now making the jump to big-time) to keep producing the other umpire gear when the money seems to be in the masks?

If Force3 is to capitalize / optimize its MLB presence, it's not going to stop producing shinguards and catchers' CPs. As we've been noticing, Force3's own website still promotes custom color configurations on entire sets of catchers' gear. That sets the Social Media outlets all abuzz; it's all warm, fuzzy, big hug & a high five enthusiasm. They're going to keep that going, assuredly. So, the saving grace (for us) is the umpire shinguards use the same parts as the catcher's shinguards, albeit (always  ) black. Not too difficult to keep producing them, as they've struck upon a design apex that doesn't necessarily need to be changed or improved. 

CPs for catchers are rudimentarily simple, and are the best, most cost-effective item for advertising. All-Star, Easton, Mizuno, Nike... they've all made a killing amongst catchers because they're always trotting out a newer, more vividly-colored CP. When's the last time you saw a Wilson on TV? 

Therein lies the problem for us, and for All-Star and Force3. Sure, we can recognize an All-Star or Force3 mask from 400 feet away. Can we do the same with a CP? Nope. And last I know of, Wilson still squats on that MLB Official Supplier contract, doing jack s#!t with it.*

 

 

*- And no, gussying up a Wilson Gold with Memory Foam instead of Sofa-Cushion foam doesn't exempt them. Nothing. They've done nothing.

[JimKirk]

On 4/5/2022 at 12:34 PM, wolfe_man said:

What is going on with Force3?

Are they still producing their V2 umpire mask? There are none available on their website (not even a spot for it) and they're about out of stock everywhere else.  Is all stock going to MLB catchers now?

Does anyone have any insight into what's happening?  I feel like they've taken a huge step backwards after exploding onto the MLB scene a couple of years ago.  Their prices went up dramatically and now you can't find their stuff in stock anywhere (most places).

Good news! Some of what you mentioned is back in stock for Force3.

+ Silver & Black V2 Defender Masks

+ Ultimate Shin Guards (all sizes)

+ V3 CPs

That puts us at 28 of 32 F3 items in stock, as of writing.

https://www.ump-attire.com/Force3-Umpire-Gear/

[JimKirk]

On 4/7/2022 at 12:33 PM, MadMax said:

Business isn't truly about products and sales, business is about relationships. I saw this – 

On 4/6/2022 at 5:25 PM, JimKirk said:

Jason Klein and their new CEO Steven Goldschmidt paid a nice visit to us...

Thanks for noticing this! Truly important.