Obstruction during pickoff to 2nd

[RBIbaseball]

NFHS  Freshman game

Two times in a game with the same F6, I had a situation where F1 made a move to pickoff R2 at second. In both F6 was a bit sloppy (ran directly in front of the runner, altering his path) getting to the bag to make a catch/tag.

On the first attempt F6 ran directly in R2's path back to 2nd and slowed down directly in front of F2 to receive the throw (a few feet off the base), so that it caused R2 to stop and try to go around him. The ball beat the runner, and the only thing that saved him is that F6 didn't have the ball skills to apply a tag quickly enough to the rear.

On the 2nd attempt, they both raced to the bag again, getting a bit tangled up (basically hipped checked each other - both trying to make their own play respectively) about 4 or 5 feet from the base as the ball was coming in. This caused the ball to fly out to F8. 

 

Both these examples are obstruction, correct?  F6 cannot get in the way of R2 if he doesn't possess the ball, and F6 has to give R2 clear access to a portion of the base?

[maven]

Yes. Call it when you see it. It's still OBS even though F6 doesn't make the play, and even when R2 gets to 3B on his own. This is bad tactics by F6 (at least for FED ball), and needs to be called.

And, although you didn't say it, someone will ask: contact is not necessary. The operative concept is hindrance without possession of the ball. FED has no exception for an imminent play or receiving a throw. So the first play is still OBS, even without contact.

The provision about "access to the base" applies to a fielder at the base, not one racing the runner there. Hindrance away from the base without the ball is OBS. The only thing to be alert for is a runner trying to draw an OBS call by deviating into the fielder: self-hindrance is not OBS (and, in my experience, less common in fresher games).

[RBIbaseball]

7 hours ago, maven said:

Yes. Call it when you see it. It's still OBS even though F6 doesn't make the play, and even when R2 gets to 3B on his own. This is bad tactics by F6 (at least for FED ball), and needs to be called.

And, although you didn't say it, someone will ask: contact is not necessary. The operative concept is hindrance without possession of the ball. FED has no exception for an imminent play or receiving a throw. So the first play is still OBS, even without contact.

The provision about "access to the base" applies to a fielder at the base, not one racing the runner there. Hindrance away from the base without the ball is OBS. The only thing to be alert for is a runner trying to draw an OBS call by deviating into the fielder: self-hindrance is not OBS (and, in my experience, less common in fresher games).

Okay, that's exactly what I thought. I need to trust my knowledge more.

If the offense wasn't already up 13-0 I would have felt more pressure to make the call, even though there was the smallest bit of doubt. It was easier to make a no call and risk someone thinking I missed it, then make the call and having to explain my way out of it - when I wasn't 100%.

I mentioned the OBS I saw to my HPU inbetween innings, but he fed me a bunch of BS essentially saying "You can't call that, because it's not OBS - he was just trying to field the ball". The next inning he was signaling IFF with only R1 - I'm glad no one hit a popup, cause I would have been embarrassed if he called it. I mentioned to him in the half inning that there needs to be R1/R2 for IFF, but he went on to explain how I was wrong and to make sure I call it or else we're giving them a free double play. 

I'm not trying to roast this particular partner (I'm 99.9% he wouldn't be reading this forum), but rather just vent a bit because I can't seem to get anyone to work with who is actually helping me to get better in any way.

It's hard when all the "senior" umpires I've been scheduled with don't care about actually being good at what they do ... which has been very obvious with their attitudes and comments.

[Catch18]

Okay, that's exactly what I thought. I need to trust my knowledge more.
If the offense wasn't already up 13-0 I would have felt more pressure to make the call, even though there was the smallest bit of doubt. It was easier to make a no call and risk someone thinking I missed it, then make the call and having to explain my way out of it - when I wasn't 100%.
I mentioned the OBS I saw to my HPU inbetween innings, but he fed me a bunch of BS essentially saying "You can't call that, because it's not OBS - he was just trying to field the ball". The next inning he was signaling IFF with only R1 - I'm glad no one hit a popup, cause I would have been embarrassed if he called it. I mentioned to him in the half inning that there needs to be R1/R2 for IFF, but he went on to explain how I was wrong and to make sure I call it or else we're giving them a free double play. 
I'm not trying to roast this particular partner (I'm 99.9% he wouldn't be reading this forum), but rather just vent a bit because I can't seem to get anyone to work with who is actually helping me to get better in any way.
It's hard when all the "senior" umpires I've been scheduled with don't care about actually being good at what they do ... which has been very obvious with their attitudes and comments.

Holy SH*#.

Also, it sounds like you’re on the right track my friend. You already recognize bad umpiring and skill/ability. Keep working hard.

Also also: “It's hard when all the "senior" umpires I've been scheduled with don't care about actually being good at what they do ... which has been very obvious with their attitudes and comments”……don’t worry about it. You won’t change those guys. They’ll show their ass enough times and coaches will remember the guys who call R1 only IFF or don’t have the balls to call a 7th inning squeeze play RLI and send R3 back. You will come out on top. Don’t waste your time worrying about others, focus on your game and not who you work with. If you have a partner that completely blows one like R1 only IFF, he’s gonna have to face the coach, not you.


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[RBIbaseball]

12 hours ago, Catch18 said:

Holy SH*#.

Also, it sounds like you’re on the right track my friend. You already recognize bad umpiring and skill/ability. Keep working hard.

Also also: “It's hard when all the "senior" umpires I've been scheduled with don't care about actually being good at what they do ... which has been very obvious with their attitudes and comments”……don’t worry about it. You won’t change those guys. They’ll show their ass enough times and coaches will remember the guys who call R1 only IFF or don’t have the balls to call a 7th inning squeeze play RLI and send R3 back. You will come out on top. Don’t waste your time worrying about others, focus on your game and not who you work with. If you have a partner that completely blows one like R1 only IFF, he’s gonna have to face the coach, not you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks for the words of encouragement.

[Richvee]

19 hours ago, RBIbaseball said:

Okay, that's exactly what I thought. I need to trust my knowledge more.

If the offense wasn't already up 13-0 I would have felt more pressure to make the call, even though there was the smallest bit of doubt. It was easier to make a no call and risk someone thinking I missed it, then make the call and having to explain my way out of it - when I wasn't 100%.

I mentioned the OBS I saw to my HPU inbetween innings, but he fed me a bunch of BS essentially saying "You can't call that, because it's not OBS - he was just trying to field the ball". The next inning he was signaling IFF with only R1 - I'm glad no one hit a popup, cause I would have been embarrassed if he called it. I mentioned to him in the half inning that there needs to be R1/R2 for IFF, but he went on to explain how I was wrong and to make sure I call it or else we're giving them a free double play. 

I'm not trying to roast this particular partner (I'm 99.9% he wouldn't be reading this forum), but rather just vent a bit because I can't seem to get anyone to work with who is actually helping me to get better in any way.

It's hard when all the "senior" umpires I've been scheduled with don't care about actually being good at what they do ... which has been very obvious with their attitudes and comments.

Hang in there. I ran into the same stuff when I started out doing sub varsity HS. There’s a reason these guys have been umpiring 25 years and still only get a sub varsity schedule. Call your game. You seem to have a good grasp on rules. Be confident. Along the way, you WILL run into parters that do know what’s going on. Latch on to them, pick their brains. Thats where you’ll learn. 
 

Before you know it you’ll be getting the Varsity games and these guys will still doing JV insisting they’ve been overlooked because the assignor hates them, when it’s clear as day they’re still doing JV because they refuse to learn. 
 

Keep at it. Keep reading. Go to clinics. One of the best things about moving up is you’ll get fewer of these type partners. 

[wolfe_man]

On 4/2/2022 at 8:29 PM, RBIbaseball said:

It's hard when all the "senior" umpires I've been scheduled with don't care about actually being good at what they do ... which has been very obvious with their attitudes and comments.

 This is probably the single most frustrating thing we have to endure as new umpires who actually care about doing a good job. If you get a bad partner or one that no longer hustles, then it's hard to keep the desire to improve alive at times.  I cannot believe how many umpires (even HS Varsity) umpires have no clue of what a strike-zone is supposed to look like or what the rule-book has to say about anything.  They mess up IFF, OBS and so many other little things.  I've seen so many guys, this year, that say they've been doing this for 20 years yet have no clue how to be in the correct position behind the catcher to see the outside corner.  Normally, because they're so interested in hiding behind the catcher and flinch every time a ball is in the dirt.   These are the same guys that call the pitch before it hits the mitt also (ball, outside) or freeze on a close one.  They're never prepared for anything, but react to everything.  

I feel for you as it is hard to get better with no valuable feedback or partner to learn from, but keep the desire and stay focused on what you can control.  Keep looking for ways to improve and keep watching the MLB guys on TV for better mechanics.  Also, this site has been, and is, a huge wealth of knowledge for me and any umpire that wishes to improve his trade.  Best of luck and keep digging! You'll get there faster than you think and the game will slow down for you.

[Catch18]

If you get a bad partner or one that no longer hustles, then it's hard to keep the desire to improve alive at times.

Nah, think of it in the reverse. No one umpire has ever held me back. Frame it as, “Guess I’ll be looking pretty badass today.”

Again, coaches will remember.

[RBIbaseball]

3 hours ago, wolfe_man said:

I feel for you as it is hard to get better with no valuable feedback or partner to learn from, but keep the desire and stay focused on what you can control.  Keep looking for ways to improve and keep watching the MLB guys on TV for better mechanics.  Also, this site has been, and is, a huge wealth of knowledge for me and any umpire that wishes to improve his trade.  Best of luck and keep digging! You'll get there faster than you think and the game will slow down for you.

This is definitely the case. These guys could care less about spending 5 minutes to study/learn/hone their knowledge outside of being at the game to make their $. Meanwhile, I've spent more hours watching videos and reading these forums over the past few months than umpiring. I've been starving for someone to actually give me good feedback. I have goals/standards with my umpiring that don't align with the people I've been working with. This particular umpire showed up 2 minutes before game start. I tried to ask bare bones rotation type stuff during 1st inning pitcher warm-ups, but he was so nonchalant about it. "I'll just read off what you do, don't worry about anything" , "You take all the fly balls to the outfield, I'll watch the bases (I was BU)"... I got him to change his mind on that one, but I knew what I was dealing with right then...  I went on to watch every dead ball never get put back into the play for the rest of the game, lol... luckily no one ever got picked off after a dead ball.

3 hours ago, Catch18 said:

Nah, think of it in the reverse. No one umpire has ever held me back. Frame it as, “Guess I’ll be looking pretty badass today.”

Again, coaches will remember.

I do have this mindset, but it does get old. The silver lining is that the coaches are sending up positive vibes to my assigner, so hopefully before too long he gets me games with his "good umps" so they can hopefully vouch for me being ready to start getting varsity games with good partners.

I got 4 games coming up the week after spring break. I'll probably have a good chat with my assigner then, if I still feel like I'm flapping in the wind.

[Tog Gee]

On 4/2/2022 at 12:00 PM, maven said:

FED has no exception for an imminent play or receiving a throw.

I want to echo this. (NFHS)

I hear a lot of coaches and umpires say "The ball was on it's way in" or "the fielder was trying to field the ball" as an argument that OBS didn't occur. The burden is on the defender to avoid OBS until the ball is in their glove.

[The Man in Blue]

During a nice post-game with an assignor over the summer ... a potential obstruction call came up (under NFHS).  The assignor reminded us, "In Fed you only ask two questions.  First, did he have the ball?  If yes, then stop.  If no, did he hinder or impede the runner?  If yes, you have obstruction.  That's it.  Those are the only things to consider." 

[MadMax]

Please understand, @RBIbaseball, I'm not targeting you with this observation; simply, your statement inspires me to comment... 

On 4/2/2022 at 7:29 PM, RBIbaseball said:

If the offense wasn't already up 13-0 I would have felt more pressure to make the call, even though there was the smallest bit of doubt. It was easier to make a no call and risk someone thinking I missed it, then make the call and having to explain my way out of it - when I wasn't 100%.

This predicament is the reason why a lot of new umpires get berated, belittled, frustrated, and then leave. It's a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" paradox. If you call it, you'll get no support from your partner, you'll have coach(es) mad at you and berating you, and you'll hear the cacophony of "It's not about you, Blue! Let the kids play!" from the parents in the stands. If you don't call it, then you've got some purported "evaluator" either interrogating you as to why you missed it, or ascribing your "miss" as unreliable judgement, incomplete rules knowledge, or poor situational awareness and recognition. "If you don't call it in a 14U game, how can I be assured that you'll recognize it and call it in a Varsity / College / Independent Pro game??" 

🤨 

See where the frustration comes from? 

Know what overcomes that? Your statement touches on it – context. Context is key. Did the R2 return to the base Safe-ly both times? Yes. Did you recognize these plays as comprising OBS? Yes, based on your question posed to us. The only thing that concerns me – as a developer of umpires – is the potential of implied "viral umpiring". Your partner is rife with it. I'm not upset with your decision to abstain from making a call; to the contrary, if you had, you'd have likely elicited the aforementioned responses, and wore more grief than that game's worth. However, I can't help but consider that if you had made the call, you would have had a concrete demonstration that might have rectified your partner's flawed line of thinking, and the way he interprets the rule. That's Vaccine / Inoculative / Antidote Umpiring right there!

On 4/4/2022 at 7:06 AM, wolfe_man said:

This is probably the single most frustrating thing we have to endure as new umpires who actually care about doing a good job.

Not quite. A close second – or, I dare say, equally frustrating – is when these "old" umpires get the choice, cherry assignments, solely because the assigner(s) coddle them, while the only reason put forth to the new(er) umpires is "you've got to pay your dues" or "do your time". 🤬

[MadMax]

On 4/2/2022 at 9:54 PM, Catch18 said:

If you have a partner that completely blows one like R1 only IFF, he’s gonna have to face the coach, not you.

One hitch to that – you (as partner U) may not have to face the coach, but you will have to fix it. Grrreaaaat. 🙄

... but then that exposes the other hitch, hiding (or harbored, depending on your interpretation) within NFHS – the deification (deity... as in "god"... not defec... 💩) of PU as the "final say" or "UIC" or whatever. 

That whole "my field, my game, my call" 🐂 💩.