OBS/INT situation

[udbrky]

Great start to the season! Scrimmage in 45 degree, constant wind, with 45mph gusts!

R3, popup hit down 1B line, near the RLI marker (turf field, so all lines perfect)

F1 and F3 converging, BR running, i'm on bases getting my popcorn ready for this show.

F3 is a few feet behind the RLI line when F1 and BR collide a couple feet in front of the RLI marker

F3 drops the ball in fair territory.

 

WUG?

[Biscuit]

4 minutes ago, udbrky said:

Great start to the season! Scrimmage in 45 degree, constant wind, with 45mph gusts!

R3, popup hit down 1B line, near the RLI marker (turf field, so all lines perfect)

F1 and F3 converging, BR running, i'm on bases getting my popcorn ready for this show.

F3 is a few feet behind the RLI line when F1 and BR collide a couple feet in front of the RLI marker

F3 bobbles the ball

 

WUG?

Assuming that F3 was the protected fielder, that's type one obstruction (BR obstructed before first base), and assuming the ball was fair, BR to first, R3 stays at third. However, if the ball was foul AND dropped, BR comes back to bat with a strike added to the count (unless there were already 2 out)

[Senor Azul]

Mr. Biscuit raises a very good point about protecting a fielder--a fielder is protected if he is in the act of fielding. You told us there were two fielders trying to get into position to make the play—you can only protect one at a time. Depending on which one is protected this play could result in an interference call. Here’s how the 2017 Jaksa/Roder manual describes giving protection (or priority) to a fielder in the act of fielding—

If, at any given time, two or more fielders are expecting to field a batted ball, the one who is in a better position to field it (usually the one nearer the ball) is given priority over the other fielders by the umpire. Only one fielder can have priority at a given time, but priority can be immediately taken from one fielder and given to another.

More likely, though, you have a Type 1 obstruction situation. I would disagree with Mr. Biscuit that it matters how many outs there are. If the fly ball is foul and dropped (uncaught) it’s just a foul ball—no out is awarded. The reasoning is that the obstruction had nothing to do with the fact the batter hit a foul ball. Of course, if the fly ball or line drive is caught (fair or foul) the batter-runner is out even if he had been obstructed.

[maven]

Complicated play.

• F1 protected: runner INT whether the ball is foul or fair, caught or uncaught (wait to call the INT until fair/foul status determined).
• F3 protected and hindered by BR: runner INT, same as above.
• F3 protected and unhindered by BR:
  • Batted ball caught, fair or foul: BR out.
  • Batted ball not caught:
    • Fair ball: OBS by F1 (type 1 for OBR).
    • Foul ball: just a foul ball.

I think. 

[Replacematt]

1 hour ago, maven said:

Complicated play.

• F1 protected: runner INT whether the ball is foul or fair, caught or uncaught (wait to call the INT until fair/foul status determined).
• F3 protected and hindered by BR: runner INT, same as above.
• F3 protected and unhindered by BR:
  • Batted ball caught, fair or foul: BR out.
  • Batted ball not caught:
    • Fair ball: OBS by F1 (type 1 for OBR).
    • Foul ball: just a foul ball.

I think. 

I'm with you but for one question that I can't remember affecting the bolded part:

I somewhat remember an interpretation that OBS on a BR is ignored on an outfield fly that is caught. Am I misremembering?

[Senor Azul]

From the 2018 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual (section 6.16, p. 96):

Batter-Runner Obstructed Before Reaching First Base

Play 3: Batter-runner is obstructed before reaching first base on a ball hit to the outfield.

Ruling 3:  Call the obstruction by pointing at the obstruction and calling, “That’s obstruction;” however, leave the ball in play until all action has ceased. Then call “Time” and impose such penalties, if any, that will nullify the act of obstruction. If a fly ball is caught in this situation, batter-runner is out. If the batted ball was a fair ball but not caught, the batter-runner will always be “protected” at least to first base.

Since Mr. maven pretty much just repeated everything Mr. Biscuit and I posted, that means you are with me as well. This question is answered in all the rules interpretation manuals and is based on OBR rule 6.01(h)(1). Same reasoning as stated before—the obstruction has no bearing on the fact that the batter hit a fly ball that was caught by the defense.

[noumpere]

IF it's OBS (as seems likely given the description) and IF the ball is dropped, then the number of outs can affect where you'd "place" R3.  With two outs, he's likely running and you will score him; with less than two outs he's likely staying near third and will be placed there.

 

Edit:  The outs, of course, affect this from a practical standpoint, not from a rules standpoint.  If R3 was running (for whatever reason) with 0 or 1 outs, and  F3 drops the ball, you'd still allow R3 to score.

[Replacematt]

12 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

From the 2018 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual (section 6.16, p. 96):

Batter-Runner Obstructed Before Reaching First Base

Play 3: Batter-runner is obstructed before reaching first base on a ball hit to the outfield.

Ruling 3:  Call the obstruction by pointing at the obstruction and calling, “That’s obstruction;” however, leave the ball in play until all action has ceased. Then call “Time” and impose such penalties, if any, that will nullify the act of obstruction. If a fly ball is caught in this situation, batter-runner is out. If the batted ball was a fair ball but not caught, the batter-runner will always be “protected” at least to first base.

Since Mr. maven pretty much just repeated everything Mr. Biscuit and I posted, that means you are with me as well. This question is answered in all the rules interpretation manuals and is based on OBR rule 6.01(h)(1). Same reasoning as stated before—the obstruction has no bearing on the fact that the batter hit a fly ball that was caught by the defense.

I'm with all of you in principle, but is there support?

1. OBS on a BR before reaching first when the ball is in the infield is always Type 1 (by interpretation.)
2. OBS on a BR before reaching first when the ball is in the outfield is Type 2 (by definition.)
3. Per the quoted interpretation, OBS in situation 2 is executed like Type 2, enforced as Type 1, but with the exception of a caught fly ball.

The problem I have is that this quoted interpretation, if applied to the infield, conflicts with the interpretation in situation 1. What I would want is something that carves out an exception to situation 1 as there is for a caught outfield fly, or else there's nothing we can hang our hats on.

[udbrky]

I called OBS. Placed BR on 1st and kept R3 there. He was still standing on the base, so he wasn't attempting to advance.

Coach comes out and I explained I can only protect one fielder. He said "what about the one that got trucked!" I said "he wasn't near the ball!" He didn't like it. But oh well. I'm pretty sure he thinks I'm awful from past games as well.

[noumpere]

This is from an old version of MLBUM.  I think it's still accurate.  Emphasis added.

6.22 BATTER-RUNNER OBSTRUCTED BEFORE REACHING FIRST BASE
When the batter-runner is obstructed before reaching first base, it is not always the case that the
batter-runner will be awarded first base on this type of obstruction. For example, if the batterrunner
is obstructed before reaching first base on a fly ball or line drive that is caught, the batterrunner
is out. The reasoning here is that the obstruction had no bearing on the fact that the batter
hit a fly ball that was caught by the defense. Similarly, should the batter-runner be obstructed
before reaching first base on a foul ball not caught, the foul ball prevails. Again, the reasoning is
that the obstruction had nothing to do with the fact that the batter hit a foul ball.

Situations where the batter-runner is obstructed before reaching first base can generally be
divided into three cases. Again note that in this type of obstruction, it is Y12t always the case
that "Time" is called immediately and the batter-runner awarded first base.

Case 1: Batter-runner is obstructed before reaching first base on a ground ball to an infielder. It
appears that the infielder will have an easy play on the ball.
Ruling: This is obstruction under Official Baseball Rule 7.06(a). "Time" is called immediately
and batter-runner is awarded first base.

Case 2: Batter-runner is obstructed before reaching first base on a pop-up or line drive to an
infielder.
Ruling: Call the obstruction by pointing at the obstruction and calling, "That's obstruction."
However, leave the ball in play. If the pop-up or line drive is caught, batter-runner is out.
However, if the pop-up or line drive is dropped (and is a fair ball) and if the batter-runner has not
yet reached first base when the ball is dropped, "Time" is called and the batter-runner is awarded
first base under Official Baseball Rule 7.06(a). Other runners would be awarded bases they
would have reached had no obstruction occurred. (In this case, the play reverts back to Case 1
above.) On the other hand, if the batter-runner has clearly reached (or rounded) first base when
the fly ball is dropped, play is allowed to continue until no further action is possible with the
umpire then making awards-if any-that will nullify the obstruction. (In this case, the obstruction
is treated as "Type 2" obstruction. See Section 6.21.)

Case 3: Batter-runner is obstructed before reaching first base on a ball hit to the outfield.
Ruling: Call the obstruction by pointing at the obstruction and calling, "That's obstruction";
however, leave the ball in play until all action has ceased. Then call "Time" and impose such
penalties, if any, that will nullify the act of obstruction. If a fly ball is caught in this situation,
batter-runner is out. If the batted ball was a fair ball not caught, the batter-runner will always be
"protected" at least to first base.

[Replacematt]

19 minutes ago, noumpere said:

This is from an old version of MLBUM.  I think it's still accurate.  Emphasis added.

6.22 BATTER-RUNNER OBSTRUCTED BEFORE REACHING FIRST BASE
When the batter-runner is obstructed before reaching first base, it is not always the case that the
batter-runner will be awarded first base on this type of obstruction. For example, if the batterrunner
is obstructed before reaching first base on a fly ball or line drive that is caught, the batterrunner
is out. The reasoning here is that the obstruction had no bearing on the fact that the batter
hit a fly ball that was caught by the defense. Similarly, should the batter-runner be obstructed
before reaching first base on a foul ball not caught, the foul ball prevails. Again, the reasoning is
that the obstruction had nothing to do with the fact that the batter hit a foul ball.

Situations where the batter-runner is obstructed before reaching first base can generally be
divided into three cases. Again note that in this type of obstruction, it is Y12t always the case
that "Time" is called immediately and the batter-runner awarded first base.

Case 1: Batter-runner is obstructed before reaching first base on a ground ball to an infielder. It
appears that the infielder will have an easy play on the ball.
Ruling: This is obstruction under Official Baseball Rule 7.06(a). "Time" is called immediately
and batter-runner is awarded first base.

Case 2: Batter-runner is obstructed before reaching first base on a pop-up or line drive to an
infielder.
Ruling: Call the obstruction by pointing at the obstruction and calling, "That's obstruction."
However, leave the ball in play. If the pop-up or line drive is caught, batter-runner is out.
However, if the pop-up or line drive is dropped (and is a fair ball) and if the batter-runner has not
yet reached first base when the ball is dropped, "Time" is called and the batter-runner is awarded
first base under Official Baseball Rule 7.06(a). Other runners would be awarded bases they
would have reached had no obstruction occurred. (In this case, the play reverts back to Case 1
above.) On the other hand, if the batter-runner has clearly reached (or rounded) first base when
the fly ball is dropped, play is allowed to continue until no further action is possible with the
umpire then making awards-if any-that will nullify the obstruction. (In this case, the obstruction
is treated as "Type 2" obstruction. See Section 6.21.)

Case 3: Batter-runner is obstructed before reaching first base on a ball hit to the outfield.
Ruling: Call the obstruction by pointing at the obstruction and calling, "That's obstruction";
however, leave the ball in play until all action has ceased. Then call "Time" and impose such
penalties, if any, that will nullify the act of obstruction. If a fly ball is caught in this situation,
batter-runner is out. If the batted ball was a fair ball not caught, the batter-runner will always be
"protected" at least to first base.

Thanks. I was remembering case 1 and 3, but not 2.

[Richvee]

30 minutes ago, Matt said:

I'm with all of you in principle, but is there support?

1. OBS on a BR before reaching first when the ball is in the infield is always Type 1 (by interpretation.)
2. OBS on a BR before reaching first when the ball is in the outfield is Type 2 (by definition.)
3. Per the quoted interpretation, OBS in situation 2 is executed like Type 2, enforced as Type 1, but with the exception of a caught fly ball.

The problem I have is that this quoted interpretation, if applied to the infield, conflicts with the interpretation in situation 1. What I would want is something that carves out an exception to situation 1 as there is for a caught outfield fly, or else there's nothing we can hang our hats on.

The 2018 MiLBUM has no mention of the fly ball being in the outfield.

6.16 BR OBS before reaching first base

"When the BR is obstructed before reaching first base, it is not always the case that the batter runner will be awarded first base. For example, if the batter-runner is obstructed before reaching first base on a fly ball or a line drive that is caught, the batter-runner is out. The reasoning here is that the obstruction had no bearing on the fact that the batter hit a fly ball that was caught by the defense."  

 

 

[Richvee]

So I was a little slow finding the MiLBUM. 

[noumpere]

2 hours ago, udbrky said:

I called OBS. Placed BR on 1st and kept R3 there. He was still standing on the base, so he wasn't attempting to advance.

Coach comes out and I explained I can only protect one fielder. He said "what about the one that got trucked!" I said "he wasn't near the ball!" He didn't like it. But oh well. I'm pretty sure he thinks I'm awful from past games as well.

So in your OP when you said, "F3 bobbles the ball" you meant, "F3 touches the ball when the ball is over fair territory and F3 drops the ball."   Just clarifying.

[udbrky]

1 hour ago, noumpere said:

So in your OP when you said, "F3 bobbles the ball" you meant, "F3 touches the ball when the ball is over fair territory and F3 drops the ball."   Just clarifying.

Good catch, edited

[Biscuit]

21 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

Mr. Biscuit raises a very good point about protecting a fielder--a fielder is protected if he is in the act of fielding. You told us there were two fielders trying to get into position to make the play—you can only protect one at a time. Depending on which one is protected this play could result in an interference call. Here’s how the 2017 Jaksa/Roder manual describes giving protection (or priority) to a fielder in the act of fielding—

If, at any given time, two or more fielders are expecting to field a batted ball, the one who is in a better position to field it (usually the one nearer the ball) is given priority over the other fielders by the umpire. Only one fielder can have priority at a given time, but priority can be immediately taken from one fielder and given to another.

More likely, though, you have a Type 1 obstruction situation. I would disagree with Mr. Biscuit that it matters how many outs there are. If the fly ball is foul and dropped (uncaught) it’s just a foul ball—no out is awarded. The reasoning is that the obstruction had nothing to do with the fact the batter hit a foul ball. Of course, if the fly ball or line drive is caught (fair or foul) the batter-runner is out even if he had been obstructed.

D'oh, meant two strikes, not outs. That's a really dumb mistake on my part.