HS hurdling rule

[Guest Don Deniro]

HS rules. Wild pitch, R3 attempts to score. F2 retrieves the ball and tries to beat R3 to HP. Artifical turf field (immaterial to the rules question, but this phenomenal athletic feat couldn't have been done on grass).
1. R3 believing he lost the race, with a legal slide (so far), plants his foot 4 inches before HP, tops up, dives over F2. F2 whiffs on the tag attempt above his head, and drops the ball. R3 touches HP.  
2. Same scenario, but R3 beats the tag, then plants his foot on the corner of HP, and dives over F2. 

I had #1 and called R3 out for the illegal dive over F2. I think I got that right (I'm sure I'll hear about it here if not), but the question my partner posed was, what if scenario #2 had occurred. I think, I'm calling R3 safe, with the illegal dive occurring after the run scored. I'm looking for opinions on both cases.

Side opinion, the dive was made illegal for safety reasons. I get that. But this dive avoided the horrendous collision that I was going to have the best/worst view of. A phenomenal athletic, injury preventing feat that I was in awe over. 

[grayhawk]

44 minutes ago, Guest Don Deniro said:

HS rules. Wild pitch, R3 attempts to score. F2 retrieves the ball and tries to beat R3 to HP. Artifical turf field (immaterial to the rules question, but this phenomenal athletic feat couldn't have been done on grass).
1. R3 believing he lost the race, with a legal slide (so far), plants his foot 4 inches before HP, tops up, dives over F2. F2 whiffs on the tag attempt above his head, and drops the ball. R3 touches HP.  
2. Same scenario, but R3 beats the tag, then plants his foot on the corner of HP, and dives over F2. 

I had #1 and called R3 out for the illegal dive over F2. I think I got that right (I'm sure I'll hear about it here if not), but the question my partner posed was, what if scenario #2 had occurred. I think, I'm calling R3 safe, with the illegal dive occurring after the run scored. I'm looking for opinions on both cases.

Side opinion, the dive was made illegal for safety reasons. I get that. But this dive avoided the horrendous collision that I was going to have the best/worst view of. A phenomenal athletic, injury preventing feat that I was in awe over. 

You were definitely right on your play.  2 is a good question.  "Runners" are always out when they dive over a fielder.  If the runner has scored, he is a retired runner which is a different category and not specifically covered by the rule.  Even with MC, if the runner has already scored, he is not out (though he is ejected).  For this reason, I would not call him out even though it's a safety rule (as is MC).

[maven]

I had thought that the only FED provision that "unscores" a run is FPSR (see 8.2.4W, below). But now I might have to change my mind, which makes me queasy as it disputes grayhawk's answer....

The case plays on jumping/diving over a fielder all involve 2B, so they don't rule on a scored/retired runner. The only penalty in the rule is to declare the offender out. 8-4-2b(2) for jumping, hurdling, and leaping over a fielder not lying on the ground; 8-4-2c for all diving.

With INT, there's always another runner involved, and it's possible to penalize INT by a scored/retired runner by calling that guy out. But with diving, that's not always the case (think: R3 only, wild pitch, R3 scores and dives over F2).

The rationale for unscoring a run for FPSR is surely related to the fact that FPSR is a safety provision and merits a stiffer penalty. I'd apply the same logic to diving over F2 and unscore the run.

Here's the FPSR case play:

Quote

8.4.2 SITUATION W:The bases are loaded with (a), less than two outs, or (b), two outs. B5 hits a ground ball to F4, who throws to F2 for the force out at home. The throw pulls F2 off home plate several steps toward the first-base side. R3, seeing F2 ready to make a play on B5 at first base, touches home plate and maliciously crashes into F2.

RULING: (a) Since this is a force-play situation, R3 and B5 are declared out and no one scores. R3 will be ejected from the game. In (b), R3 will be declared out and ejected for the contact, and no run will score.

 

[grayhawk]

I can see your logic with FPSR, but the penalty for FPSR is universal. Even if the offending runner is safe on the play, he is out by penalty. What say you about MC by a runner who touches the plate prior to the infraction?  We know he is not out, but in that case there is at least another penalty which is ejection. Maybe this is an actual case to use 10-2-3g?

[beerguy55]

Is a run unscored if there is malicious contact/conduct after the plate is touched?

Wouldn't this be treated the same as that, however that is treated?

[ricka56]

8 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

Is a run unscored if there is malicious contact/conduct after the plate is touched?

Wouldn't this be treated the same as that, however that is treated?

3-3-1n. initiate malicious contact on offense or defense;
In (n), ... if on offense, the player is ejected and declared out, unless he has already scored.

It is always hazardous to port one rule to cover an unrelated play. That said, I'd agree, but not admit that I used the MC exception.

10 hours ago, maven said:

The rationale for unscoring a run for FPSR is surely related to the fact that FPSR is a safety provision and merits a stiffer penalty. I'd apply the same logic to diving over F2 and unscore the run.

In the OP side note, it says that R3 did a much safer thing, diving over F2, rather than collide full speed with F2. You have to give R3 consideration for avoiding the contact/collision...doesn't merit a stiffer penalty. Of course, that consideration is moot if there is an actual rule to apply. But in this case, none seem to apply.

[Mudisfun]

In scenario 1, I have an out. Great that he missed the collision, but we have to rule on the actions which occurred, not what might have happened.

Scenario 2, I have a run scored... Then I have to determine if I think he tripped on the plate, in which case there is nothing to address other than an 'are you OK?' or determine if he dove... in that case, I can warn both the player and the coach/team for the safety issue. I don't see how I am going to un-ring the bell and remove a run from the board... We do not for MC, and that is a higher level of infraction as it bring an automatic ejection to the party.

 

[maven]

34 minutes ago, Mudisfun said:

I don't see how I am going to un-ring the bell and remove a run from the board... We do not for MC, and that is a higher level of infraction as it bring an automatic ejection to the party.

8.4.2W.

[grayhawk]

1 hour ago, maven said:

8.4.2W.

That's specific to FPSR, which carries a different penalty than any other infraction.  If the OP was a force at home, then I would be completely on board with removing the run from the board.

[maven]

1 hour ago, grayhawk said:

That's specific to FPSR, which carries a different penalty than any other infraction.  If the OP was a force at home, then I would be completely on board with removing the run from the board.

I cited it in order to dispute the claims that (1) we cannot (ever) "unscore" a run, and (2) we cannot specifically do so for MC.

But it seems that "unscoring" is indeed unique to FPSR:

Quote

10.2.2 SITUATION A: With the home team behind by one run in the bottom of the seventh and two outs, B4 singles. R2 scores, but then maliciously runs over the catcher. The umpire ejects R2 and nullifies his run. As both teams begin to go to their respective dugouts, R2's coach informs an umpire that the run should score, since he touched the plate before the malicious contact. The umpire summons the other umpires and asks them to wait. The umpire disagrees, at which time the coach lodges a protest with the umpire-in-chief.

RULING: The coach's protest is on record since he lodged the protest with an umpire before the umpires left the field. If the umpire-in-chief realizes an error has been made, the game would resume, as long as an umpire has remained on the field.

 

[Mudisfun]

22 hours ago, maven said:

I cited it in order to dispute the claims that (1) we cannot (ever) "unscore" a run, and (2) we cannot specifically do so for MC.

But it seems that "unscoring" is indeed unique to FPSR:

 

Different bell.