IFF follies

[BLarson]

11U USSSA tournament baseball.   We're on defense, R1 and R2, 1 out.

Batter hits a high pop fly to SS in infield (no wind, our SS was camped under it).   Neither umpire calls IFF.
Our SS doesn't catch it so the runners take off running. 
The SS throws the ball to 3rd.   No tag.  Umpire calls the runner out at 3rd.

I go out and ask them:   Shouldn't that have been an IFF?
They confer and called BR out for IFF.   

Inning over.   Our defense leaves the field and prepare to bat.  
The other team takes the field and pitcher finishes his warm up pitches when the other team figures out that since it wasn't a force the runner going to 3rd should be safe.

The umpires then come over and say they made a mistake and they are going to correct it.   The placed runners on 3rd and 2nd and send us back on defense with 2 outs.

I said we believe runners should be on 1st and 2nd, not 2nd and 3rd, since they probably woudn't have run if IFF was called, and since it wasn't called we only tagged the base, not the runner.  Why would we?   They said that's what they were going to do and we went on to play.

We knew the other team very well and everyone was calm and understanding and wanted to get it right
Obviously this wasn't handled very well, but was this corrected the right way?   Is it correctable up to the point the other team delivers a pitch?   Where the runners placed correctly?

We ended up retiring the next batter so it didn't have any affect to the game, even though it happened in the top of the 1st inning.

 

 

[noumpere]

The proper correction is R1, R2, (the same R1 and R2 as at the start of the play), two outs.

[beerguy55]

Under common sense and fair play - yeah, go back and stick the runners on first and second.   Second and third is a livable compromise.   At that age, even with IFF loudly called, the runners may (probably?) have run when the ball dropped, and the defense may (probably?) have just touched third base.

Technically, by rule, not sure where the offense's right to question/appeal the third out ends.   When the defense leaves the infield seems a bit self-serving to the defense who are benefiting from the call.   I would suspect before they (new) defense takes the field?  Or maybe before the next pitch?   I think a protest could still be entered before the next pitch.

This isn't truly a case where the scorekeeper can say "Hey, there's only two outs."  The umpires have called three outs, so the offense needs to appeal.  (I think)

For you as a coach - unless you are really really worried about a slow runner at second replaced by a fast runner, leave the question for after the inning or after the game...the play should have ended with one out called (two out total) and runners on first and second, and that is exactly what happened until you disputed it.   If it doesn't matter just let the game keep going.

 

 

[Replacematt]

Honestly, I don't think I correct this one. There was not a worse outcome for the offense than what would have happened with a declared IFF.

[beerguy55]

1 minute ago, Matt said:

Honestly, I don't think I correct this one. There was not a worse outcome for the offense than what would have happened with a declared IFF.

You let the third out stand?

 

[Replacematt]

Just now, beerguy55 said:

You let the third out stand?

 

I should have been more clear. I don't correct the uncalled IFF, so that out never happens. I let the play stand as originally called.

[Senor Azul]

From the 2016 BRD (section 277, pp. 178-179): 

Official Interpretation:  Wendelstedt:  If an umpire does not declare an infield fly because he is unaware that it is an infield fly situation, that is a correctable umpire error. The error can be corrected by calling out the batter-runner and placing runners where they would have ended up had the infield fly been declared immediately. That will usually result in placing the runners back on the bases where they started…

Play:  R1, R2, 0 outs. B1 lifts a high, easy pop fly to the pitcher. The umpires fail to call infield fly, and F1 does not make the catch. He retrieves the ball in time to throw to third for:  (a) a tag out of R2 sliding in; or (b) a force out as the ball beats R2 to the base. R1 goes to second; BR stops on first. Ruling:  In FED (a), both BR and R2 are out. In (b), B1’s out has removed the force:  Only B1 is out. In NCAA/OBR, in both (a) and (b) BR is out. Runners return TOP.

Play:  Bases loaded, 1 out. B1 hits a high pop-up toward third baseman who is quickly able to get under the ball. Even though the batted ball meets all the conditions of an infield fly, neither umpire so declares. While over fair territory, the ball hits the heel of F5’s glove and falls to the ground. The runners, not hearing “infield fly,” take off. F5 recovers in time to tag R2. Ruling:  In FED, both BR and R2 are out: 3 outs. R3’s run counts if he scored before F5 tagged out R2. In NCAA/OBR, when the umpires admit their error:  BR is out, runners return TOP.

[The Man in Blue]

To beerguy55’s observation/question about when the offense can no longer appeal ... once the field was clear, meaning when the defense was off the field and baserunners left their bases and entered the dugout.

I’ll admit that is a tough one ... no action has happened, so I can see how an umpires would want to rectify the situation.  By rule though, it was too late.  By trying to fix it, the umpire’s opened the game up to a possible protest.