F7 in Dead Ball Territory

[Kevin_K]

I ask some leeway here. I was not a witness, but was asked about this play by a colleague. I am intrigued by the situation. My concern is the apparent inconsistency in how rules may be interpreted or applied.

Fed Rules

B1 hits a screamer down that hooks around 3B fair. The turf field has no fence along LF, but there is a 6 inch wide concrete strip that serves as a dead ball line. F7 manages to stop the ball prior to it leaving the playing surface. The ball is on the ground and F7 leaves the playing surface. While he is in dead ball territory, F7 picks up the ball that was sitting in foul ground (live ball territory).

I thought two bases from when the player picked up the ball while in DBT. 

This thread discusses a ball touched while a player is in dead ball territory and references catch and carry. Catch and carry does not apply in the play above. After going through all rule sets and case plays, I found nothing to validate any stoppage of play. None of my reference materials indicates that this is a scenario where the ball would be dead and bases awarded. I asked my association interpreter who asked "several other" people and was told that this was a two base award but no specific rule addresses the play.

• OBR says in Rule 5.09(a)(1) Comment (Rule 6.05(a) Comment): " A fielder, in order to make a catch on a foul ball nearing a dugout or other out-of-play area (such as the stands), must have one or both feet on or over the playing surface (including the lip of the dugout) and neither foot on the ground inside the dugout or in any other out-of-play area."
• NCAA says in Rule 6.4.e: All base runners are awarded one base if "When a fielder, after catching a fly ball, steps or falls into any out-of-play area. All other runners shall advance one base from his last legally touched base at the time the fielder entered such out-of-play area."
• Fed says in Rule 5.1.1.i:  The ball is dead immediately when "a fielder, after catching a fair or foul ball (fly or line drive), leaves the field of play by stepping with both feet or by falling into a bench, dugout, stand, bleacher, or over any boundary or barrier such as a fence, rope, chalk line, or a pregame determined imaginary boundary line;"

None of these rules signifies in any way that a player standing in dead ball territory cannot play a live ball

This thread discusses sun glasses and the comment was made by @scrounge and @johnnyg08 that if the rules don't say something is illegal, then it is legal.

Why is the live ball dead if the rules don't say it is a dead ball?

If anyone has an interpretation on this I would appreciate seeing it. Thanks for indulging me.

 

[noumpere]

4 minutes ago, Kevin_K said:

I thought two bases from when the player picked up the ball while in DBT. 

 

 

 

You thought correctly.  Don't overthink it.

 

Or, use 8.3.3J as a basis.  This case involves a ball that has stopped and is then kicked into DBT.  In your play, the ball has stopped, and is then picked up in DBT.  Seems close enough to me. (Unless you are claiming that a fielder in DBT holding the ball does not make the ball in DBT -- in that case use common sense.)

[Rich Ives]

19 minutes ago, Kevin_K said:

I ask some leeway here. I was not a witness, but was asked about this play by a colleague. I am intrigued by the situation. My concern is the apparent inconsistency in how rules may be interpreted or applied.

Fed Rules

B1 hits a screamer down that hooks around 3B fair. The turf field has no fence along LF, but there is a 6 inch wide concrete strip that serves as a dead ball line. F7 manages to stop the ball prior to it leaving the playing surface. The ball is on the ground and F7 leaves the playing surface. While he is in dead ball territory, F7 picks up the ball that was sitting in foul ground (live ball territory).

I thought two bases from when the player picked up the ball while in DBT. 

This thread discusses a ball touched while a player is in dead ball territory and references catch and carry. Catch and carry does not apply in the play above. After going through all rule sets and case plays, I found nothing to validate any stoppage of play. None of my reference materials indicates that this is a scenario where the ball would be dead and bases awarded. I asked my association interpreter who asked "several other" people and was told that this was a two base award but no specific rule addresses the play.

• OBR says in Rule 5.09(a)(1) Comment (Rule 6.05(a) Comment): " A fielder, in order to make a catch on a foul ball nearing a dugout or other out-of-play area (such as the stands), must have one or both feet on or over the playing surface (including the lip of the dugout) and neither foot on the ground inside the dugout or in any other out-of-play area."
• NCAA says in Rule 6.4.e: All base runners are awarded one base if "When a fielder, after catching a fly ball, steps or falls into any out-of-play area. All other runners shall advance one base from his last legally touched base at the time the fielder entered such out-of-play area."
• Fed says in Rule 5.1.1.i:  The ball is dead immediately when "a fielder, after catching a fair or foul ball (fly or line drive), leaves the field of play by stepping with both feet or by falling into a bench, dugout, stand, bleacher, or over any boundary or barrier such as a fence, rope, chalk line, or a pregame determined imaginary boundary line;"

None of these rules signifies in any way that a player standing in dead ball territory cannot play a live ball

This thread discusses sun glasses and the comment was made by @scrounge and @johnnyg08 that if the rules don't say something is illegal, then it is legal.

Why is the live ball dead if the rules don't say it is a dead ball?

If anyone has an interpretation on this I would appreciate seeing it. Thanks for indulging me.

 

There is no catch involved.  You can only catch a batted ball in flight.

This is basically a ball thrown/kicked out of play.

[johnnyg08]

As others have posted, this would be treated the same as a "time of deflection"

[maven]

You can cobble together the ruling from:

A principle from 5-1-1i:

"Ball becomes dead immediately when: ... (i) a fielder, after catching a fair or foul ball (fly or line drive), leaves the field of play by stepping with both feet or by falling into a bench, dugout, stand, bleacher, or over any boundary or barrier such as a fence, rope, chalk line, or a pregame determined imaginary boundary line"

From this, we glean that a fielder leaves the field of play when he has both feet in DBT.

And a principle in 5.1.1L:

Quote

 

5.1.1 SITUATION L: F7, while attempting to catch a fly ball near dead-ball area (a) makes the catch with one foot on the dead-ball area line and the other foot in dead-ball area, or (b) makes the catch with both feet in the dead-ball area, or (c) makes the catch with both feet in the playing area and then steps with both feet or falls into the dead-ball area.

RULING: In (b) and (c), the ball becomes dead. In (a) and (c), it is a legal catch, but in (c), F7 has left the playing area and if there are any runners on base, they each are awarded one base. In (b), it is not a catch. (8-3-3d)

 

Note that in (b) here the ball becomes dead because the fielder who touches it is completely (both feet) in DBT.

4 hours ago, Kevin_K said:

Why is the live ball dead if the rules don't say it is a dead ball?

Because (1) the fielder was completely in DBT, and (2) the ball becomes dead when touched by a fielder completely in DBT.