Rough slide into 2nd - How do i watch that slide and make the call at 1st on DP

[mmcc2789]

Situation - Bases load, One out, Bottom 7.  14U AAA/Major tournament.

Bouncer to F6.  Throws to F4 on second base to record out.  Transition is slow but makes the throw to F3 and I pivot to watch the throw to first.  Batter-Runner beats throw and is safe.  

When I look back at second, the second baseman is on the ground and coach is coming out.  R1, slid hard at 2nd base after the out was recorded and took out F4 after the throw was made.  Problem for me is, I didn't see it.  I talked to my partner and he was watching the runner coming home.  How, in a two man system do I cover this correctly.  I believe the coach that the runner slid hard and unnecessarily late, but I followed the ball and didn't see it.  Looking for some tips or best practices to see all parts of this play.

[maven]

This is PU's play. He can back up and see R3's touch out of the corner of his eye as he watches the action at 2B.

Action at a base with a play is always a priority over a touch uncontested. If he misses HP by 1/4", oh well, no advantage gained.

[ElkOil]

PU's job is to watch the slide, while BU's is to get the safe/out at both bases. Many guys I've worked with aren't students enough of umpiring to know this, unfortunately, so I'm sure to pre-game it with them so they know they have to watch the slide.

Having said that, when I'm BU I've made the illegal slide call on a couple of occasions since it was early enough before I turned for the DP.

[Catch18]

I don't know you, or your partner, so this is not judgement on his ability or performance....I wasn't there to see it. But based on your description it sounds like it's a case of tunnel vision. I've worked many a game, and we all have, where some umpires are content on "seeing" one single aspect of a play/player. Many times we have to multi-task and pick up a number of actions....catches, touches, INT/OBS, multiple runners, etc. We all can always try to get better in challenging ourselves to see multiple actions and don't be afraid to come out and get more than 1 call in a play.


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[Jimurray]

42 minutes ago, Catch18 said:

I don't know you, or your partner, so this is not judgement on his ability or performance....I wasn't there to see it. But based on your description it sounds like it's a case of tunnel vision. I've worked many a game, and we all have, where some umpires are content on "seeing" one single aspect of a play/player. Many times we have to multi-task and pick up a number of actions....catches, touches, INT/OBS, multiple runners, etc. We all can always try to get better in challenging ourselves to see multiple actions and don't be afraid to come out and get more than 1 call in a play.


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Not helpful. BS for the OP

 

 

[Catch18]

Not helpful. BS for the OP
 
 

Really? I bet next time he's on the dish he may remember that play and hopefully remember some of the advice he came here for, employ it, and be a better umpire because of it. Relax bro....


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[Jimurray]

17 minutes ago, Catch18 said:

Really? I bet next time he's on the dish he may remember that play and hopefully remember some of the advice he came here for, employ it, and be a better umpire because of it. Relax bro....


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He was the BU so if your advice was for his partner, who is not here, it’s appropriate but not helpful. 

[Catch18]

He was the BU so if your advice was for his partner, who is not here, it’s appropriate but not helpful. 

Aware he was BU, never said he wasn't. I actually framed it as next time he steps behind the plate this play will spark a memory and he can hopefully get this play right. 2 previous posters already answered the guys direct, actual question, so I offered further insight....you know, what forums like this are supposed to do. I guess we could just keep piling on the same answers but that won't serve anyone better.


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[Jimurray]

6 minutes ago, Catch18 said:

Aware he was BU, never said he wasn't. I actually framed it as next time he steps behind the plate this play will spark a memory and he can hopefully get this play right. 2 previous posters already answered the guys direct, actual question, so I offered further insight....you know, what forums like this are supposed to do. I guess we could just keep piling on the same answers but that won't serve anyone better.


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Point taken

[Replacematt]

On 9/23/2017 at 5:56 PM, ElkOil said:

PU's job is to watch the slide, while BU's is to get the safe/out at both bases. Many guys I've worked with aren't students enough of umpiring to know this, unfortunately, so I'm sure to pre-game it with them so they know they have to watch the slide.

Having said that, when I'm BU I've made the illegal slide call on a couple of occasions since it was early enough before I turned for the DP.

Just to clarify...you didn't turn if you got this call, did you?

[ElkOil]

On 9/24/2017 at 6:12 PM, Matt said:

Just to clarify...you didn't turn if you got this call, did you?

I turned after I made the out call at 2B to make the out call at 1B, regardless of when the ball and runner arrived since the out at 1B was automatic. Once you determine the slide at 2B is illegal, you don't have to see what happens at 1B.

[ALStripes17]

I turned after I made the out call at 2B to make the out call at 1B, regardless of when the ball and runner arrived since the out at 1B was automatic. Once you determine the slide at 2B is illegal, you don't have to see what happens at 1B.

His point was that if you are getting the illegal slide at 2B as the BU, you shouldn't be turning to even look at 1B...

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[grayhawk]

On 9/23/2017 at 3:56 PM, ElkOil said:

PU's job is to watch the slide, while BU's is to get the safe/out at both bases. Many guys I've worked with aren't students enough of umpiring to know this, unfortunately, so I'm sure to pre-game it with them so they know they have to watch the slide.

Having said that, when I'm BU I've made the illegal slide call on a couple of occasions since it was early enough before I turned for the DP.

This general statement is incorrect.  It's BU's job to watch for safe/out, secure possession, MC, AND the slide - up until the pivot man releases the ball to put out the BR.  Once the ball is released, it's then PU's job to watch the rest of the slide, MC, etc, and then even help on pulled foot and swipe tag at first.

[KenBAZ]

I agree, as BU I'm getting this most of the time. If the slide is late and perhaps contact happens behind the bag I'd depend on my partner to get it. If I have it before I turn, I point and announce "Time, that's interference". Turn to 1B, point at the BR and say, "He's out!" with my out mechanic.

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[ElkOil]

9 hours ago, ALStripes17 said:

His point was that if you are getting the illegal slide at 2B as the BU, you shouldn't be turning to even look at 1B...

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So get the out at 2B, then while I continue to look at 2B, call the runner out at 1B? Got it. I'll be sure to do this next time.

[ElkOil]

8 hours ago, grayhawk said:

This general statement is incorrect.  It's BU's job to watch for safe/out, secure possession, MC, AND the slide - up until the pivot man releases the ball to put out the BR.  Once the ball is released, it's then PU's job to watch the rest of the slide, MC, etc, and then even help on pulled foot and swipe tag at first.

Kinda sounds like splitting hairs to divide the slide between the two umpires. As PU, I'm watching the whole thing and will make a call accordingly. When I'm BU, I'll call it if I see it assuming my partner doesn''t.

[Umpire in Chief]

I actually had a situation blow up on me this season where I was BU in the B position. Ball was put in play. Something told me R1 was going to attempt to "break up" the double play. I was for whatever reason positive this was going to happen. I got the initial out at 2nd and stayed with that play (as others have mentioned didn't belong to me) far too long (and nothing happened) that I was too late in turning to first and never saw the play there. I called the runner safe just because I didn't see the play. It led to an argument, because it was a banger of a play. The coach even said he knows I didn't see the play well (I didn't see it at all.) My partner said I was probably right, but it was too close to tell from where he was. 

Moral of the story: Stay in your lane! The potential of something does not preclude us from our designated responsibilities. 

I know better AND I know my partner would have had the call if something happened. If I had just stayed in my lane and stuck to my responsibilities I probably wouldn't have had it blow up on me. 

[grayhawk]

3 minutes ago, Umpire in Chief said:

I actually had a situation blow up on me this season where I was BU in the B position. Ball was put in play. Something told me R1 was going to attempt to "break up" the double play. I was for whatever reason positive this was going to happen. I got the initial out at 2nd and stayed with that play (as others have mentioned didn't belong to me) far too long (and nothing happened) that I was too late in turning to first and never saw the play there. I called the runner safe just because I didn't see the play. It led to an argument, because it was a banger of a play. The coach even said he knows I didn't see the play well (I didn't see it at all.) My partner said I was probably right, but it was too close to tell from where he was. 

Moral of the story: Stay in your lane! The potential of something does not preclude us from our designated responsibilities. 

I know better AND I know my partner would have had the call if something happened. If I had just stayed in my lane and stuck to my responsibilities I probably wouldn't have had it blow up on me. 

I had something similar a couple of years ago.  In my case, the 1B coach was yelling, "Break it up!" really loud which got my attention.  I waited too long to turn and the play at first blew up on me.

[grayhawk]

16 hours ago, ElkOil said:

Kinda sounds like splitting hairs to divide the slide between the two umpires. As PU, I'm watching the whole thing and will make a call accordingly. When I'm BU, I'll call it if I see it assuming my partner doesn''t.

It's not splitting hairs.  Each umpire has primary responsibilities.  It's still BU's primary responsibility to call FPSR before the pivot man releases the ball to first.  It's PU's primary responsibility to call FPSR after the ball is released because BU's primary responsibility at that point to to call the play at first base.

Does that mean that PU can't call it before the ball is released if BU doesn't?  Certainly not, but he should allow the BU to make that call before stepping in.

[ALStripes17]

So get the out at 2B, then while I continue to look at 2B, call the runner out at 1B? Got it. I'll be sure to do this next time.

Please go back and read how you wrote your responses... Your statements made it seem like you were still rendering a call at 1B after calling FPSR at 2B.

Cut the unnecessary sarcasm.

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[ElkOil]

5 hours ago, ALStripes17 said:

Cut the unnecessary sarcasm.

 

I certainly will. But the only reason is because you told me to.

[ElkOil]

11 hours ago, grayhawk said:

It's not splitting hairs.  Each umpire has primary responsibilities.  It's still BU's primary responsibility to call FPSR before the pivot man releases the ball to first.  It's PU's primary responsibility to call FPSR after the ball is released because BU's primary responsibility at that point to to call the play at first base.

Does that mean that PU can't call it before the ball is released if BU doesn't?  Certainly not, but he should allow the BU to make that call before stepping in.

I think we agree on this topic.

[ALStripes17]

I certainly will. But the only reason is because you told me to.

I considered that necessary

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[VolUmp]

Is the "like" feature that has been upgraded and expanded on this forum created by a woman?  I pity the Male Participant who thinks a "heart" emoji is more manly than a simple "thumbs up."

Just a random comment, we ALWAYS pre-game at the HS level that the PU will look for illegal slides (or illegal non-slides), INT, OBS at 2B on a double play ball.  The reason U3 is taught (in 3-man) to stand in Deep B with his shoulders squared with the 3B dugout … it is a means of helping to remind him that he has no primary responsibility at 1B.  Don't look over on a pickoff attempt at 1B as though it's U3’s call (just because it is BU’s call in 2-man). U1 better have it. 

That's the beauty of 3-man.  Since U3 never has to look at the back end of a 6-4-3 or 4-6-3 DP, he can usually have the best look at the slide and see if he catches OBS, INT, illegal slides, etc, (Another point we pregame when doing 3-man).

Districts at Top Level Programs should get consistent in all states and demand 3-man for regular season District games. There is just too much riding on it, and we don't have replay.  Most officials here love working 3-man, and would give up even more of their paycheck to work 3-man (as compared to the 2-man fee) in a District game.

—————— TENNESSEE RATES ——————

$75.00 … 2-Man Fee per Official = $150

$70.00 … 3-Man Fee per Official = $210

$60 Disparity

————————————————————————

$75.00 … 2-Man Fee per Official = $150

$60.00 … 3-Man Fee per Official = $180

$30 Disparity (What I plan to propose)

That’s about the cost of 5 baseballs.

If the school can’t afford that, maybe each team should have a parent from the home team provide the $30 on a rotating basis starting with parents of Seniors.

Edited October 12, 2017 by VolUmp
New thoughts; Old clarifications

[grayhawk]

11 hours ago, VolUmp said:

The reason U3 is taught (in 3-man) to stand in Deep B with his shoulders squared with the 3B dugout … it is a means of helping to remind him that he has no primary responsibility at 1B.  Don't look over on a pickoff attempt at 1B as though it's U3’s call (just because it is BU’s call in 2-man).

 

I believe the most current mechanic is to be squared to the plate because this gives U3 better peripheral vision of R1 to see if he is stealing.  I'm going to BBUC next week and will see what they teach.