Is a retouch a force out?

[Mister B]

1 out, R2 and R3 batter hits a blooper to F6 who fires it to F2 who is late on the tag. F2 throws to F4 catching R2 who didn't tag up. 

Now aside from the fact that R3 didn't tag up. Is the out at 2B considered a force out? I wasn't sure and my partner was confident that it was. So run didn't score. Were we correct? 

Also, does a F2 & F1 meeting count as a mound visit in any ruleset. This is LL majors, but I'm curious. It didn't happen but after the game the catcher did ask if he could ask for time to talk to his pitcher. 

[Mike D]

1 out, R2 and R3 batter hits a blooper to F6 who fires it to F2 who is late on the tag. F2 throws to F4 catching R2 who didn't tag up. 
Now aside from the fact that R3 didn't tag up. Is the out at 2B considered a force out? I wasn't sure and my partner was confident that it was. So run didn't score. Were we correct? 
Also, does a F2 & F1 meeting count as a mound visit in any ruleset. This is LL majors, but I'm curious. It didn't happen but after the game the catcher did ask if he could ask for time to talk to his pitcher. 

It is an appeal - time play

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[maven]

6 hours ago, Mister B said:

Now aside from the fact that R3 didn't tag up. Is the out at 2B considered a force out? I wasn't sure and my partner was confident that it was. So run didn't score. Were we correct? 

A force out is recorded on a runner who is forced to advance by the batter becoming a runner. When the batter flies out, no subsequent outs are force outs, as no runners are forced to advance once the batter is retired.

6 hours ago, Mister B said:

Also, does a F2 & F1 meeting count as a mound visit in any ruleset. This is LL majors, but I'm curious. It didn't happen but after the game the catcher did ask if he could ask for time to talk to his pitcher. 

No. That's why we break it up after seconds instead of minutes.

[Mister B]

19 hours ago, maven said:

No. That's why we break it up after seconds instead of minutes.

I'm not letting any visit last minutes. 

 

So I talked to my partner on this and now he's curious as to, would the tag on R3 at the plate, even though it was still after he touched, count as the appeal for him leaving early? I would say no, it should be treated the same as if he had missed 3B. It's an appeal out and therefore needs to be explicit.

Thoughts?

[noumpere]

5 hours ago, Mister B said:

I'm not letting any visit last minutes. 

 

So I talked to my partner on this and now he's curious as to, would the tag on R3 at the plate, even though it was still after he touched, count as the appeal for him leaving early? I would say no, it should be treated the same as if he had missed 3B. It's an appeal out and therefore needs to be explicit.

Thoughts?

99% of the time, the tag on R3 is NOT an appeal -- it's not going to be "obvious."  Now, in the 1% of the time, where someone (associated with the team) is yelling "tag him, he left early" (or there's some other indication that it's an appeal and not a tag attempt on a runner attempting to advance) you could have an appeal.

[beerguy55]

6 hours ago, Mister B said:

I'm not letting any visit last minutes. 

 

So I talked to my partner on this and now he's curious as to, would the tag on R3 at the plate, even though it was still after he touched, count as the appeal for him leaving early? I would say no, it should be treated the same as if he had missed 3B. It's an appeal out and therefore needs to be explicit.

Thoughts?

If there's a tag on R3 as he's sliding into the plate, there's no evidence that this is an appeal - this just looks like a play at the plate....safe or out.

If R3 has already run by home plate and is on his way to the dugout and F2 tags him that would look like an appeal...but now you have a question of WHAT they are appealing?  Leaving early?  Missing home plate?

 

 

[catsbackr]

1 hour ago, beerguy55 said:

If there's a tag on R3 as he's sliding into the plate, there's no evidence that this is an appeal - this just looks like a play at the plate....safe or out.

If R3 has already run by home plate and is on his way to the dugout and F2 tags him that would look like an appeal...but now you have a question of WHAT they are appealing?  Leaving early?  Missing home plate?

 

 

Ask them what they are appealing.  Rule on the appeal.

[Mister B]

1 hour ago, catsbackr said:

Ask them what they are appealing.  Rule on the appeal.

I thought an appeal needs to be explicit and obvious. If I have to ask, it doesn't fit that criteria. 

[noumpere]

4 minutes ago, Mister B said:

I thought an appeal needs to be explicit and obvious. If I have to ask, it doesn't fit that criteria. 

The *act* needs to be obvious.  If there's a question about *what* they are appealing, you can, and should ask for clarification.  For example, if they tag a runner, ask which base.  If they tag a base, ask which runner.  (both assuming there's more than one possibility.)

[Mister B]

So I think I'm clear up until the 3rd out. But now I'm wondering about the 4th out. If the defense doesn't leave the field after the 3rd out and instead tosses the ball to 3B for the appeal on R3 not re-touching, do I have a 4th out? 

There's a bunch written about 4th outs, but little is based on the actual rules, and it sounds like there is some varying opinions in interpretations. Any guidance? 

[Mike D]

So I think I'm clear up until the 3rd out. But now I'm wondering about the 4th out. If the defense doesn't leave the field after the 3rd out and instead tosses the ball to 3B for the appeal on R3 not re-touching, do I have a 4th out? 
There's a bunch written about 4th outs, but little is based on the actual rules, and it sounds like there is some varying opinions in interpretations. Any guidance? 

The only time a 4th out appeal comes into play is when it is an appeal that would nullify a run, usually a missed base by a preceding runner.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[beerguy55]

19 minutes ago, Mister B said:

So I think I'm clear up until the 3rd out. But now I'm wondering about the 4th out. If the defense doesn't leave the field after the 3rd out and instead tosses the ball to 3B for the appeal on R3 not re-touching, do I have a 4th out? 

There's a bunch written about 4th outs, but little is based on the actual rules, and it sounds like there is some varying opinions in interpretations. Any guidance? 

Yes, you can appeal on a base running infraction to get a  "fourth" out to nullify a run - you're really just appealing to replace the third out with a different third out that nullifies the run.

The (apparently unresolved) debate is whether or not you can get a fourth out to nullify a run in non-appeal situations.

[Mister B]

14 minutes ago, Mike D said:

The only time a 4th out appeal comes into play is when it is an appeal that would nullify a run, usually a missed base by a preceding runner.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
 

or in my scenario, R3 not retouching.