Little League - hit by ball in batter's box

[Guest Chris]

What is the call:

Batter is in front of batter's box and tops the ball, the ball hits fair territory and spins back and hits batter while he is still in front of batter's box.

[Jimurray]

35 minutes ago, maineump said:

If 1 foot is in the box then it is foul. Very little of the box is in fair territory, probably so little that there is not any way for a foot to be in box and totally in fair territory.

Bringing a rule book is a no-no. Tell him to show it is an out if the batter still has a foot in the box.

To be precise, no matter where the batters feet were in the box, he could be hit on some part of his body in the fair corner by a fair ball. Interestingly, if he deadened a bunt that dropped in that corner and kicked or stepped on the ball exiting the box he would be out. 

[Chris]

42 minutes ago, maineump said:

If 1 foot is in the box then it is foul. Very little of the box is in fair territory, probably so little that there is not any way for a foot to be in box and totally in fair territory.

Bringing a rule book is a no-no. Tell him to show it is an out if the batter still has a foot in the box.

6.05(f) specifically says the batter is out.

You may need to refresh your understanding of fair territory - the batter's box has a substantial amount of area in the front of the box in fair territory. 

Not sure what you are referencing with 1 foot in the box being a foul - do you have a LL rule to cite on that?

[Chris]

6 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

To be precise, no matter where the batters feet were in the box, he could be hit on some part of his body in the fair corner by a fair ball. Interestingly, if he deadened a bunt that dropped in that corner and kicked or stepped on the ball exiting the box he would be out. 

The 2 times we have had this happen, the ball hit fair territory and was in fair territory when the ball hit the batter (making it a fair ball). The batter still had 1 or both feet within the box. We ruled based on the ball being fair, not the position of the batter, it was upheld by the district.

[MT73]

2 hours ago, Chris said:

So, we have 2 majors teams playing a close game, the managers have the rule books out looking for any advantage, a fair ball hits a batter in the batter's box. I call foul ball, the manager protests and brings me the official rule book and says show me the rule that says that is a justifiable call. I say, well, there is an instructor's comment in the Umpire School Rules Instructor Manual - he says so what, this book says the official rules are in this book, show me the rule...

Bring a rule book onto my field and you are gone.

I do not do LL but it is common knowledge that if a batter is in the box and gets  hit with his batted ball--even if his feet are in the fair portion of the box--then it is a foul ball.

In 50 years of watching, playing, coaching and umpiring baseball I have never seen this questioned.

[Chris]

1 minute ago, MT73 said:

Bring a rule book onto my field and you are gone.

Gone for what? The only calls they can protest are administration of rules, if the manager comes out turned to rule 6.05(f) and asks you what rule you are using you are going to kick him out?

[Jimurray]

2 minutes ago, Chris said:

The 2 times we have had this happen, the ball hit fair territory and was in fair territory when the ball hit the batter (making it a fair ball). The batter still had 1 or both feet within the box. We ruled based on the ball being fair, not the position of the batter, it was upheld by the district.

Most of us would not have ruled that way. When your district trains umpires do they not use the RIM? Granted there have been some hiccups with the RIM lately. But does your UIC do HS, college, other codes and make note that in the other codes this would normally be a foul ball and he is applying the rule for LL literally?

[MT73]

1 minute ago, Chris said:

Gone for what? The only calls they can protest are administration of rules, if the manager comes out turned to rule 6.05(f) and asks you what rule you are using you are going to kick him out?

Come out on my field with a rule book and you are gone.

Yes, I will warn you.

Yes, I will tell you my ruling and you may protest the game but do not thrust a rule book under my nose.

Now get back to the dugout or the next step is the parking lot.

[Chris]

1 minute ago, Jimurray said:

Most of us would not have ruled that way. When your district trains umpires do they not use the RIM? Granted there have been some hiccups with the RIM lately. But does your UIC do HS, college, other codes and make note that in the other codes this would normally be a foul ball and he is applying the rule for LL literally?

Our district UIC has been umpiring Little League for over 20 years and high school, initially he applied the high school rule and overruled the call, then reversed his decision when applying only LL rules.

I am missing the point on literal, the rule refers to a ball in fair territory, it is not ambiguous, it does not leave room for interpretation. 

[Chris]

31 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

Interestingly, if he deadened a bunt that dropped in that corner and kicked or stepped on the ball exiting the box he would be out. 

Using this example of the batter being out, why would the batter be out if he touched a deadened bunt, but not if the ball hit the ground and bounced back and hit him in the exact same position. Let's just say for the sake of the argument that the batter's position and where the ball hit him were the same on the deadened bunt and the ball bouncing back.

[SJA]

FWIW, The following may give a clue to practical applications? . . . hummmm . . .

Quote from the preface of the 2017 LL RIM.

“INSTRUCTORS COMMENTS
These notes are not part of any Rulebook publication, but are helpful comments or explanations from Little League International."

 

SJA :-?

[noumpere]

10 minutes ago, Chris said:

I am missing the point on literal, the rule refers to a ball in fair territory, it is not ambiguous, it does not leave room for interpretation. 

Evans identifies 234 (or some such number) or errors, omissions, falsehoods, and mistakes in OBR (upon which LL rules are based -- most of it is a direct copy).  Plus, the rules are written "by gentlemen, for gentlemen; not by lawyers, for lawyers."

 

It would be nice to think that all would be corrected by now.  It's better to just apply the rules as they have come to be interpreted.  The play you mention is a foul ball.  It's been explained multiple times.  You don't have to like it; you should accept it.  Any more starts to become like trolling.

[Chris]

15 minutes ago, MT73 said:

Come out on my field with a rule book and you are gone.

Yes, I will warn you.

Yes, I will tell you my ruling and you may protest the game but do not thrust a rule book under my nose.

Now get back to the dugout or the next step is the parking lot.

I appreciate your position and your right to manage your field as you choose. I do not umpire that way, if field decorum is maintained and a manager has a rule protest I always err on the side of getting the call right. The game is for the kids, not me being right. Luckily, I have not had to reverse a call or be overruled by the district, but I am happy when managers know the rules.

[Jimurray]

12 minutes ago, Chris said:

Our district UIC has been umpiring Little League for over 20 years and high school, initially he applied the high school rule and overruled the call, then reversed his decision when applying only LL rules.

I am missing the point on literal, the rule refers to a ball in fair territory, it is not ambiguous, it does not leave room for interpretation. 

You and he both do know that OBR had the same rule as LL prior to about 2013 and the interp was to rule a foul ball in any OBR based code as evidenced by the RIM guidance and, I'm guessing, any professional school or clinic?

[MT73]

16 minutes ago, Chris said:

I appreciate your position and your right to manage your field as you choose. I do not umpire that way, if field decorum is maintained and a manager has a rule protest I always err on the side of getting the call right. The game is for the kids, not me being right. Luckily, I have not had to reverse a call or be overruled by the district, but I am happy when managers know the rules.

Last week..

Batter hits a foul ball to the backstop.

Catcher throws it back to the pitcher but it goes over his head.

R3 scores.

I send him back.

Coach states that on a foul ball the runner has the right to advance on an over throw.

I tell him he is wrong.

Suppose he wanted to show me a rule book to support his ( ridiculous) position?

Should I entertain his lunacy for the sake of field decorum?

Your OP is just as ridiculous to everyone except you.

Yes, we all know that a part of the batter's box is in fair territory.

But as long as the hit foot is within the box when he is struck it is a foul ball.

Deal with it.

PS--it is a rare manager/coach who "knows the rules"

PPS-learn the rules/interpretations or forever be at the mercy of ignorant coaches.

[White47]

I'm not really following this discussion. Are some people actually saying this should be an out? I've never done a LL game in my life, but I kinda thought that a ball hitting someone in the box was just an old fashion "baseball" rule, and that it was always foul.
Maybe I'm misreading this thread, but this seems like a pretty basic call, if he was for sure in the box.


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[White47]

As it pertains to LL, it is like the ball being foul if it hits the plate, a fly ball deflected over the fence in fair territory is a ground rule double, etc - these are commonly considered basic calls; they are wrong and not at all based on the rules.

Im so glad I do not do LL. Are you saying in the LL rule set that if it hits the plate it's is foul?? Or not. I would think that the plate is fair in all rule sets. I guess you learn something new every day. I stick with HS, college, and cal Ripken ball.


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[Chris]

Just now, Jwwhite47 said:

Im so glad I do not do LL. Are you saying in the LL rule set that if it hits the plate it's is foul?? Or not. I would think that the plate is fair in all rule sets. I guess you learn something new every day. I stick with HS, college, and cal Ripken ball.


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No it is fair if the ball hits or stops on the plate; you would be surprised how many people argue it is foul when their runner is tagged/thrown out. 

We get the "I have played and coached  this game for 30 something years and it has always been called foul if the ball hit the plate"

[Chris]

Just now, Jwwhite47 said:

Im so glad I do not do LL. Are you saying in the LL rule set that if it hits the plate it's is foul?? Or not. I would think that the plate is fair in all rule sets. I guess you learn something new every day. I stick with HS, college, and cal Ripken ball.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No it is fair if the ball hits or stops on the plate; you would be surprised how many people argue it is foul when their runner is tagged/thrown out. 

We get the "I have played and coached  this game for 30 something years and it has always been called foul if the ball hit the plate"

[White47]

No it is fair if the ball hits or stops on the plate; you would be surprised how many people argue it is foul when their runner is tagged/thrown out. 
We get the "I have played and coached  this game for 30 something years and it has always been called foul if the ball hit the plate"

Ok. Maybe I'm just misunderstanding this whole conversation. It getting late.


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[Chris]

Just now, Jwwhite47 said:

Im so glad I do not do LL. Are you saying in the LL rule set that if it hits the plate it's is foul?? Or not. I would think that the plate is fair in all rule sets. I guess you learn something new every day. I stick with HS, college, and cal Ripken ball.


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No it is fair if the ball hits or stops on the plate; you would be surprised how many people argue it is foul when their runner is tagged/thrown out. 

We get the "I have played and coached

30 minutes ago, MT73 said:

Last week..

Batter hits a foul ball to the backstop.

Catcher throws it back to the pitcher but it goes over his head.

R3 scores.

I send him back.

Coach states that on a foul ball the runner has the right to advance on an over throw.

I tell him he is wrong.

Suppose he wanted to show me a rule book to support his ( ridiculous) position?

Should I entertain his lunacy for the sake of field decorum?

Your OP is just as ridiculous to everyone except you.

Yes, we all know that a part of the batter's box is in fair territory.

But as long as the hit foot is within the box when he is struck it is a foul ball.

Deal with it.

PS--it is a rare manager/coach who "knows the rules"

PPS-learn the rules/interpretations or forever be at the mercy of ignorant coaches.

 

31 minutes ago, MT73 said:

Last week..

Batter hits a foul ball to the backstop.

Catcher throws it back to the pitcher but it goes over his head.

R3 scores.

I send him back.

Coach states that on a foul ball the runner has the right to advance on an over throw.

I tell him he is wrong.

Suppose he wanted to show me a rule book to support his ( ridiculous) position?

Should I entertain his lunacy for the sake of field decorum?

Your OP is just as ridiculous to everyone except you.

Yes, we all know that a part of the batter's box is in fair territory.

But as long as the o

33 minutes ago, MT73 said:

Your OP is just as ridiculous to everyone except you.

Yes, we all know that a part of the batter's box is in fair territory.

But as long as the hit foot is within the box when he is struck it is a foul ball.

 

 

 

Just to be clear, we are not talking about the ball hitting the batter's foot first - that would be a dead ball.

 

[Chris]

Just now, Jwwhite47 said:

Im so glad I do not do LL. Are you saying in the LL rule set that if it hits the plate it's is foul?? Or not. I would think that the plate is fair in all rule sets. I guess you learn something new every day. I stick with HS, college, and cal Ripken ball.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No it is fair if the ball hits or stops on the plate; you would be surprised how many people argue it is foul when their runner is tagged/thrown out. 

We get the "I have played and coached

30 minutes ago, MT73 said:

Last week..

Batter hits a foul ball to the backstop.

Catcher throws it back to the pitcher but it goes over his head.

R3 scores.

I send him back.

Coach states that on a foul ball the runner has the right to advance on an over throw.

I tell him he is wrong.

Suppose he wanted to show me a rule book to support his ( ridiculous) position?

Should I entertain his lunacy for the sake of field decorum?

Your OP is just as ridiculous to everyone except you.

Yes, we all know that a part of the batter's box is in fair territory.

But as long as the hit foot is within the box when he is struck it is a foul ball.

Deal with it.

PS--it is a rare manager/coach who "knows the rules"

PPS-learn the rules/interpretations or forever be at the mercy of ignorant coaches.

 

31 minutes ago, MT73 said:

Last week..

Batter hits a foul ball to the backstop.

Catcher throws it back to the pitcher but it goes over his head.

R3 scores.

I send him back.

Coach states that on a foul ball the runner has the right to advance on an over throw.

I tell him he is wrong.

Suppose he wanted to show me a rule book to support his ( ridiculous) position?

Should I entertain his lunacy for the sake of field decorum?

Your OP is just as ridiculous to everyone except you.

Yes, we all know that a part of the batter's box is in fair territory.

But as long as the o

33 minutes ago, MT73 said:

Your OP is just as ridiculous to everyone except you.

Yes, we all know that a part of the batter's box is in fair territory.

But as long as the hit foot is within the box when he is struck it is a foul ball.

 

 

 

Just to be clear, we are not talking about the ball hitting the batter's foot first - that would be a dead bal

 

[Jimurray]

Is there a thread off the rails emogi  

but @Chris  are you and your UIC aware that OBR and LL had the same rule wording until a few years ago and prior to that every OBR and LL interp was to rule foul if a batted ball hit the batter in the box. 

 

[Replacematt]

 

1 hour ago, Chris said:

I appreciate your position and your right to manage your field as you choose. I do not umpire that way, if field decorum is maintained and a manager has a rule protest I always err on the side of getting the call right. The game is for the kids, not me being right. Luckily, I have not had to reverse a call or be overruled by the district, but I am happy when managers know the rules.

A manager bringing a rule book on the field is showing you up, and very visibly. Your field decorum argument goes out the window--he's shoving his argument up your ass if he does this.

[Kevin_K]

Let me get this straight. You are looking for a rule - not an interpretation - that says a ball that hits the batter while in fair territory inside the batters box is an out rather than a foul ball. Is that right?

NFHS, Rule 2.2.1.f indicates that a foul ball is a batted ball that hits the batter in the batter's box. 

NCAA Rule 7.7.e says a foul ball is a legally batted ball that hits the batter in the batter's box, or hits the dirt or home plate and then hits the batter or the bat, which is in the hand or hands of the batter, while in the batter's box

OBR  5.09.a.7 If the batter is in a legal position in the batter’s box, see Rule 5.04(b)(5)(Rule 6.03), and, in the umpire’s judgment, there was no intention to interfere with the course of the ball, a batted ball that strikes the batter or his bat shall be ruled a foul ball; 

While LL may not have specifically addressed this in its rules book.... try this:  LL Baseball Umpire Clinic Manual . If that's what the organization has in its training materials, I would suggest that it should be sufficient to cite.

[MT73]

55 minutes ago, Chris said:

That is not even remotely analogous, there is a clear rule on the foul ball.

jimurray brought up that he would call the batter out on a deadened bunt landing in the batter's box that the batter touched.

 No, that is not what J Murray said.

He said if the ball was kicked or touched by the batter while exiting the box he would call him out.

(Personally I would not call him out unless contact with the ball was made a step or two out of the box.)

Yes--even if the ball first hits the plate--or in front of the plate-- and then strikes the batter while standing in the box it is a foul ball. 

PS--I think Kevin_K's post has put this thread to bed.

Thank you.