Who makes the call

[jjskitours]

The current 2017 Rules Book has a point of emphasis that states when an appeal is made on a call to an umpire (e.g. pulled foot at 1st) and the two umpires get together, the plate umpire

will make the final call. The 2017 Preseason Guide on page 7 states that the calling umpire will make the final call. At a state interpreter's meeting, it was stated that we would follow the Rules Book and always have the plate umpire make the final call. I seem to recall seeing something on this subject which stated that the Rules Book was in error. What am I missing here.

[Richvee]

 

[ALStripes17]

The current 2017 Rules Book has a point of emphasis that states when an appeal is made on a call to an umpire (e.g. pulled foot at 1st) and the two umpires get together, the plate umpire

will make the final call. The 2017 Preseason Guide on page 7 states that the calling umpire will make the final call. At a state interpreter's meeting, it was stated that we would follow the Rules Book and always have the plate umpire make the final call. I seem to recall seeing something on this subject which stated that the Rules Book was in error. What am I missing here.

NFHS sent a clarification to all state associations and said they made a clerical error ... The calling umpire is responsible for the call.

Your state needs to get it together

[MadMax]

1 hour ago, ALStripes17 said:

NFHS sent a clarification to all state associations and said they made a clerical error ... The calling umpire is responsible for the call.

Your state needs to get it together

I'm sure there were some ol' starchy umpires somewhere who were delighted – even overjoyed – to read that passage as (erroneously) published. "They're finally listening to me! I'm the plate guy, I'm the one in charge! I have final say!" 

[ALStripes17]

I'm sure there were some ol' starchy umpires somewhere who were delighted – even overjoyed – to read that passage as (erroneously) published. "They're finally listening to me! I'm the plate guy, I'm the one in charge! I have final say!" 

You're not even kidding... And makes it harder for the up-to-date, learned guys to make things happen the right way in a ballgame haha




Not saying I haven't thrown the 'Im the UIC and this is what were doing' in a game before (BU called a balk on a pitcher that feinted to 2B with an R1 advancing to 2B...Not gonna let that rule slip in my games). Sometimes ya just gotta make it happen.

[jjskitours]

3 hours ago, ALStripes17 said:

NFHS sent a clarification to all state associations and said they made a clerical error ... The calling umpire is responsible for the call.

Your state needs to get it together

I went to the NFHS web site and only see the Points of Emphasis dated November 22, 2016 which reads in part .... Once the opinion is shared, it is the plate umpire who will make the final determination on the call or play. I believe you that this was corrected or maybe I just believe it should have been. Do you know how I can find  the authoritative notice that corrected this since as I said, apparently my state didn't get the memo.

[ALStripes17]

I went to the NFHS web site and only see the Points of Emphasis dated November 22, 2016 which reads in part .... Once the opinion is shared, it is the plate umpire who will make the final determination on the call or play. I believe you that this was corrected or maybe I just believe it should have been. Do you know how I can find  the authoritative notice that corrected this since as I said, apparently my state didn't get the memo.

Haven't seen a clarification posted on the website, but multiple members from other states have been forwarded NFHS emails by their state association that clarify (myself included). You need to contact your state rules interpreter or supervisor of officials.

[jjskitours]

31 minutes ago, ALStripes17 said:

Haven't seen a clarification posted on the website, but multiple members from other states have been forwarded NFHS emails by their state association that clarify (myself included). You need to contact your state rules interpreter or supervisor of officials.

As I stated in OP I was at a State Interpreter's meeting when he clearly stated the rule book POE that plate umpire would make the final call. He compared it to the fact that the UIC in MLB does this. I know the UIC does it on video replays, but not sure how MLB handles the other situations which I guess would apply more to minor leagues with 2 umpire system. Sure would be nice to have NFHS post something on their web site. Personally I will continue to do it the way I have always and that is to have the calling umpire affirm or change his call as appropriate.

[VolUmp]

5 hours ago, ALStripes17 said:

NFHS sent a clarification to all state associations and said they made a clerical error ... The calling umpire is responsible for the call.

Your state needs to get it together

FWIW:  The correct protocol is also mentioned in the 2017/*2018 FED Ump Manual.  It is still worded less than perfectly, but it's essentially the same as NCAA.

[BT_Blue]

On Thu Feb 09 2017 at 5:39 AM, MadMax said:

"They're finally listening to me! I'm the plate guy, I'm the one in charge! I have final say!" 

"Look at the assignments! Next to my name it says UIC! Know what that means, right? I'm the UMPIRE IN CHARGE!"

[VolUmp]

11 hours ago, BT_Blue said:

I'm the UMPIRE IN CHARGE!"

You may just be showing sarcasm ... but UIC = Umpire In Chief.

[BT_Blue]

13 minutes ago, VolUmp said:

You may just be showing sarcasm ... but UIC = Umpire In Chief.

I would love to say I was... maybe subconsciously. But it was actually a happy accident and works out better than what it actually is.

Also... I am pretty sure I have seen/heard this version of UIC before.

[MadMax]

11 minutes ago, VolUmp said:

You may just be showing sarcasm ... but UIC = Umpire In Chief.

He is showing sarcasm. In my travels, a good number of amateur umpires suddenly get a big head and act all magnanimous simply because A) they are the PU, B) they have been "assigned" UIC, or C) they are working with a less-experienced umpire. From the way I've read @BT_Blue, he's encountered guys like this too.

Always remember, we may have different responsibilities and roles during a game, but we are a team with equal importance. BT and I were using sarcasm to point out the Fed book is, erroneously, creating a hierarchy where none needent exist.

[BT_Blue]

16 minutes ago, MadMax said:

He is showing sarcasm. In my travels, a good number of amateur umpires suddenly get a big head and act all magnanimous simply because A) they are the PU, B) they have been "assigned" UIC, or C) they are working with a less-experienced umpire. From the way I've read @BT_Blue, he's encountered guys like this too.

Always remember, we may have different responsibilities and roles during a game, but we are a team with equal importance. BT and I were using sarcasm to point out the Fed book is, erroneously, creating a hierarchy where none needent exist.

Actually it was a happy accident. 

[VolUmp]

1 ump = UIC

2 umps = PU = UIC

3+ umps = Determine a UIC (Crew Chief) before the game and mention at plate meeting.

[noumpere]

7 hours ago, VolUmp said:

1 ump = UIC

2 umps = PU = UIC

3+ umps = Determine a UIC (Crew Chief) before the game and mention at plate meeting.

What!?

[jjskitours]

I appreciate the responses, but for whatever reason and I'm not sure why our state interpreter emphatically stated the plate umpire (UIC in 2-man) will change or confirm his partner's call after conferring on a coach's appeal. This was even after it was pointed out that the 2017 Preseason Guide published by Referee in cooperation with the NFHS clearly states the calling umpire will make the final call (page 7). Of course this is opposite of what the Rules Book states on page 67. Other corrections to the Rules Book were made at the meeting in connection with coach's assisting a runner (live not delayed dead). If anyone has anything in writing from the NFHS that corrects the Rules Book page 67 it would be greatly appreciated. I thought of writing to NFHS, but it seems any questions / issues are to go through the state association. I know in the course of game management this isn't probably a big deal, but I just can't understand why the state would take this position. Using the MLB as a reference (UIC makes final call) doesn't really do it for me. Most of their appeals are handled through video and just not the same.

[maven]

22 minutes ago, jjskitours said:

Of course this is opposite of what the Rules Book states on page 67.

You're citing one of this year's POE's. Here's the full text:

Quote

UMPIRE ASKING ASSISTANCE FROM HIS PARTNER

Often during contests, a coach will request that an umpire seek assistance from his partner for a particular call or play situation. Asking assistance from a partner is not mandatory. It is the discretion of the plate umpire if he feels that his view was obstructed or that his partner had a better angle on the play. If he does feel that his partner’s perspective will provide additional input to his final decision, then he has the flexibility to request his partner’s help. Once the opinion is shared, it is the plate umpire who will make the final determination on the call or play. This entire exchange will be quick and intentional using umpire signals that are relayed to players, coaches and spectators.

As the context of this paragraph makes clear, the writer is envisioning something like a check swing appeal or catch/no catch, where the PU is primary and may ask for help. As it is the calling umpire is requesting help, the calling umpire reports the result.

I'm not sure why this topic is generating so much traffic. This is a uniform mechanic at all levels, slightly misleadingly stated in this POE. There's a plausible interpretation of the POE that employs the standard mechanic, so that's the way to read it. Don't be a pioneer, even with the encouragement of a misguided state interpreter.

[Replacematt]

9 hours ago, BT_Blue said:

Actually it was a happy accident. 

Just like me.

[jjskitours]

1 hour ago, maven said:

You're citing one of this year's POE's. Here's the full text:

As the context of this paragraph makes clear, the writer is envisioning something like a check swing appeal or catch/no catch, where the PU is primary and may ask for help. As it is the calling umpire is requesting help, the calling umpire reports the result.

I'm not sure why this topic is generating so much traffic. This is a uniform mechanic at all levels, slightly misleadingly stated in this POE. There's a plausible interpretation of the POE that employs the standard mechanic, so that's the way to read it. Don't be a pioneer, even with the encouragement of a misguided state interpreter.

I see your point now since I see where they use the words in the POE .... "It is the discretion of the plate umpire if he feels that HIS view...". Why this is even in there this way makes little sense. Of course I was envisioning the BU asking for help on a pulled foot or swipe tag situation in which case I assume we all agree that the BU will make the final call. That being said the state interpreter was saying in ALL CASES the PU will make the final call. Maybe he missed the same thing I did in reading the POE.

[VolUmp]

2 hours ago, jjskitours said:

Why this is even in there this way makes little sense.

It's FED.  'Nuff said. 

[VolUmp]

6 hours ago, noumpere said:

What!?

13 hours ago, VolUmp said:

1 ump = UIC

2 umps = PU = UIC

3+ umps = Determine a UIC (Crew Chief) before the game and mention at plate meeting.

If you are running any more than 2-man, you need to determine a crew chief, and let the coaches know who is serving as crew chief at the plate meeting.

I can't say it any louder — sorry.

I don't see a volume button in the toolbar.

 

[maven]

3 hours ago, VolUmp said:

It's FED.  'Nuff said. 

Actually, we can say a bit more.

If the baseball rules are created and refined in the manner of the football rules, the adoption of a rule begins with a fairly large body, is advanced to a smaller body for refinement, and is then passed to a FED editor for final revisions. That process is upside down: we should have a small group draft the rule, then pass it to a large, diverse group (umpires and coaches) for comments and revisions based on potential misinterpretations, before going to an editor for minor, cosmetic changes.

That kind of process would (at least help) prevent the kinds of glaring, unintentional statements that we sometimes see and that require subsequent undoing in later years.

[BT_Blue]

21 hours ago, VolUmp said:

1 ump = UIC

2 umps = PU = UIC

3+ umps = Determine a UIC (Crew Chief) before the game and mention at plate meeting.

 

13 hours ago, noumpere said:

What!?

 

7 hours ago, VolUmp said:

If you are running any more than 2-man, you need to determine a crew chief, and let the coaches know who is serving as crew chief at the plate meeting.

I can't say it any louder — sorry.

I don't see a volume button in the toolbar.

 

I agree one should be chosen before the umpires walk to the field (preferably the assigner does it or it is automatically the senior umpire.) As for notifying who it is to the coaches. Should be pretty darn obvious since he is the one that should be doing the talking at the plate meeting on stuff that doesn't involve game management (line ups and the such.)

[VolUmp]

5 hours ago, maven said:

Actually, we can say a bit more.

If the baseball rules are created and refined in the manner of the football rules, the adoption of a rule begins with a fairly large body, is advanced to a smaller body for refinement, and is then passed to a FED editor for final revisions. That process is upside down: we should have a small group draft the rule, then pass it to a large, diverse group (umpires and coaches) for comments and revisions based on potential misinterpretations, before going to an editor for minor, cosmetic changes.

That kind of process would (at least help) prevent the kinds of glaring, unintentional statements that we sometimes see and that require subsequent undoing in later years.

Very well said. And these are educators … kinda pitiful.