2017 Preseason Guide

[jjskitours]

Anyone else take exception to the Ruling on page 10, Play 3. It implies as I read it that if a runner is in the process of returning to a base he left too soon that it doesn't matter that he was past a base beyond the base he left too soon when the ball becomes dead. I just don't read that exception from 8-2-5 and 8.2.5 A. 

[ALStripes17]

Anyone else take exception to the Ruling on page 10, Play 3. It implies as I read it that if a runner is in the process of returning to a base he left too soon that it doesn't matter that he was past a base beyond the base he left too soon when the ball becomes dead. I just don't read that exception from 8-2-5 and 8.2.5 A. 

Where can we find the 2017 Preseason Guide?

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[maven]

1 hour ago, jjskitours said:

Anyone else take exception to the Ruling on page 10, Play 3. It implies as I read it that if a runner is in the process of returning to a base he left too soon that it doesn't matter that he was past a base beyond the base he left too soon when the ball becomes dead. I just don't read that exception from 8-2-5 and 8.2.5 A. 

Can you post the play? I'm concerned about the implication here: if it's mere implication, I'd be inclined to read it otherwise to make the ruling consistent with the rule you mention.

Of course, if the point is actually explicit, not implicit, then the natural approach would be to blame Referee magazine.

[jjskitours]

I found this in another thread

 

"When the ball is live, if the runner realizes his mistake and is attempting to return to his original base after a fly ball is caught and the ball is thrown out of play, the runner may retouch and the award is made from his original base.  It does not matter if he is past the base beyond the base at which the infraction occurred.

"Play 3:  R1 is on first when B1 hits the ball to deep center field.  R1, moving on the pitch, thinks the ball will not be caught.  After rounding third, he realizes the ball was caught.  R1 touches third and is heading for second, but has not yet retouched that base when F8's overthrown ball goes into dead-ball territory.  Ruling 3:  The fact that R1 was returning is relevant.  He may retouch second and first and then proceed to third on the award.  If the runner doesn't acknowledge his mistake and is not attempting to return to his original base after a fly ball is caught and the ball is thrown out of play, he cannot correct his error if he continues and touches the next base.  The defense may then appeal the base running infraction."

[maven]

Right: this ruling does not contradict 8-2-5.

It is ambiguous-- at least , the last sentence of the first paragraph is. "It does not matter if he is past the base beyond the base at which the infraction occurred."

Well, it does matter, depending on the timing. If he's on or past that base when the ball is thrown, as in this case play, that's nothing.

If he's on or past that base when the ball goes out of play, then that's relevant: he may not legally correct his error at that point. Even if he physically touches the base missed or not retouched, a proper appeal will be granted, and he will be out.

Still, the play's kind of a sasquatch. I've never seen it.

[BT_Blue]

I have

http://www.northbonneville.net/bigfeet

[alex7]

It seems like they're simplifying/common-sensing some of those NFHS rules this year.  I like this one, the kid is trying to correct his mistake.  The D messing up and throwing it out of play shouldn't hinder him from doing so, imo. Similar to cleaning up the sliding past home plate rule, common sense.

[Richvee]

5 hours ago, jjskitours said:

I found this in another thread

 

"When the ball is live, if the runner realizes his mistake and is attempting to return to his original base after a fly ball is caught and the ball is thrown out of play, the runner may retouch and the award is made from his original base.  It does not matter if he is past the base beyond the base at which the infraction occurred.

"Play 3:  R1 is on first when B1 hits the ball to deep center field.  R1, moving on the pitch, thinks the ball will not be caught.  After rounding third, he realizes the ball was caught.  R1 touches third and is heading for second, but has not yet retouched that base when F8's overthrown ball goes into dead-ball territory.  Ruling 3:  The fact that R1 was returning is relevant.  He may retouch second and first and then proceed to third on the award.  If the runner doesn't acknowledge his mistake and is not attempting to return to his original base after a fly ball is caught and the ball is thrown out of play, he cannot correct his error if he continues and touches the next base.  The defense may then appeal the base running infraction."

This interp aligns FED with OBR. I'm more than happy to call it the same.

[jjskitours]

I understand it would apply under both NCAA and OBR rules which I don't believe actually require the runner to be heading back at the time the ball goes out of play.

However, under NF 8-2-5 and 8.2.5 A, there is nothing about the runner attempting to return and clearly states if runner is at or beyond another base when the ball goes out of play he can not legally return and tag up. I believe Referee has made a mistake here.  

[jjskitours]

I see this issue was also raised back on Nov 23 by lawump.

[Richvee]

7 minutes ago, jjskitours said:

I understand it would apply under both NCAA and OBR rules which I don't believe actually require the runner to be heading back at the time the ball goes out of play.

However, under NF 8-2-5 and 8.2.5 A, there is nothing about the runner attempting to return and clearly states if runner is at or beyond another base when the ball goes out of play he can not legally return and tag up. I believe Referee has made a mistake here.  

It really doesn't have to do with "heading back", the fact is, he cannot legally correct his leaving early if he advances and touches another base after the ball goes out of play.

I'm pretty sure we discussed this and FED has changed their silly version of this rule. I believe @lawump said this was changing to align with OBR.....maybe I'm missremembering?

[jjskitours]

If FED intended to change to conform with OBR, the language in Rule 8-2-5 doesn't support it nor does Case Book 8.2.5 A. A clear reading from the 2017 Rules and Case Book clearly states that if a runner at the time the ball goes out of play is ON or BEYOND a succeeding base, he CANNOT return to the missed base. It does not use the OBR rule whereby the runner advances to another base after the ball goes out of play. If you have support for using the OBR rule for Fed games, please cite it.

[maven]

OK, first, my apologies: I misread the original case play. R1 is between 2B and 3B when the ball goes out of play. He must return to 1B to retouch. So he IS indeed "on or beyond" a succeeding base from the one he needs to touch.

But 8-2-5 is weird. Here's the first sentence: "If a runner who misses any base (including home plate) or leaves a base too early, desires to return to touch the base, he must do so immediately." This sentence clearly includes both missed base appeals and retouch appeals. The requirement imposed is to return immediately (as opposed to what?).

The second sentence of 8-2-5 is the problematic one: "If the ball becomes dead and the runner is on or beyond a succeeding base, he cannot return to the missed base and, therefore, is subject to being declared out upon proper and successful appeal." This sentence mentions only a missed base. It does NOT say that the runner cannot return to the unretouched base, which is not a missed base (runners miss bases while advancing or returning — bases that they must touch, not retouch).

So I guess one way to justify the ruling in the OP is to read the second sentence narrowly as applying only to missed base appeals. On such an interpretation , 8-2-5 imposes NO window on retouching: he could be anywhere and still return to retouch after the ball has gone out of play.

This interpretation explains a couple features of the ruling. For one, it explains the claim that, "It does not matter if he is past the base beyond the base at which the infraction occurred." If there's no restriction on retouching, then where he is on the bases will indeed be irrelevant.

What will be relevant is the first sentence of 8-2-5, with its requirement that if the runner "desires to return to touch the base, he must do so immediately." That requirement does apply to retouching. It also explains this sentence of the ruling: "The fact that R1 was returning is relevant.  He may retouch second and first and then proceed to third on the award." If he's returning immediately, then he satisfies the requirement in sentence 1 and we will allow him to retouch, wherever he is.

OTOH, if he fails to satisfy the "immediate return" requirement, then by interpretation we will close the window on allowable returning when he touches the next base — from wherever he is — after the ball goes out of play. That's this part of the ruling: "If the runner doesn't acknowledge his mistake and is not attempting to return to his original base after a fly ball is caught and the ball is thrown out of play, he cannot correct his error if he continues and touches the next base." This part is interpretation, with no strict basis in 8-2-5 (but, on the interpretation we're using, not contradicted either).

This is too much work. Just write the damn rule like the OBR rule for cryin' out loud.

[lawump]

12 hours ago, Richvee said:

I'm pretty sure we discussed this and FED has changed their silly version of this rule. I believe @lawump said this was changing to align with OBR.....maybe I'm missremembering?

I was hoping the rule could be amended to align with OBR.  As you can see from the 2017 rule book, the rule was not changed.

[Richvee]

1 hour ago, lawump said:

I was hoping the rule could be amended to align with OBR.  As you can see from the 2017 rule book, the rule was not changed.

Then the caseplay seems to be incorrect. Or we use Maven's interp. So this remains one of the silly FED differences that has no good reason for being different than OBR. 

[Richvee]

8 minutes ago, Richvee said:

Then the caseplay seems to be incorrect. Or we use Maven's interp. So this remains one of the silly FED differences that has no good reason for being different than OBR. 

 

[jjskitours]

4 hours ago, Richvee said:

Then the caseplay seems to be incorrect. Or we use Maven's interp. So this remains one of the silly FED differences that has no good reason for being different than OBR. 

I don't think the Case Play 8.2.5 A is incorrect. I think Maven has made too big a leap distinguishing between a missed base and leaving a base too early. It seems to me it is just another BRD and the runner is dead on appeal when the ball becomes dead when he is at or beyond a succeeding base.

[Richvee]

4 hours ago, jjskitours said:

I don't think the Case Play 8.2.5 A is incorrect. I think Maven has made too big a leap distinguishing between a missed base and leaving a base too early. It seems to me it is just another BRD and the runner is dead on appeal when the ball becomes dead when he is at or beyond a succeeding base.

Sorry, I meant the case play from the pre season guide being incorrect.