Last time by / Baserunning / Appeal

[Mizzou2016]

R2 no one out, NCAA Rule set (NAIA Fall ball), deep fly ball to center field, R2 running on the pitch. 

R2 touches 3rd, looks back for the ball, thinks it is going to be caught and retreats to 2nd - he takes three steps towards 2nd, sees the ball drop and cuts across the cutout towards home (does not touch 3rd a second time). 

If the defense were to appeal, could this runner be called out for missing the base?

I think I know the answer, but can't find it addressed under "runner is out on Appeal" section in NCAA rules.


 

[noumpere]

Yes, the runner is out on appeal

[Mizzou2016]

NCAA 8-6-a(3) (When Runners are out on Appeals) says: 

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(3) The runner fails to touch each base in order when advancing or returning to a base. Either the runner or the missed base may be tagged.

He touched each base in order - where would you point to that says he is out on appeal?

[grayhawk]

I agree with noumpere.  By retreating back towards second base and then cutting through the infield on his way home, he failed to touch the base on his last time by.  Let's take this to the extreme.  The runner makes it all the way back to within a step of second base and then cuts straight towards home running over the pitcher's mound - would you deny that appeal for a miss of third?  Also, I don't see a difference between a runner who made it to third, touched it and then retreating and a runner who touched third, ran past it and touched it on his way back.  In either case, if the runner misses third on his last time by, he is subject to be out on appeal.

[noumpere]

34 minutes ago, StevenCraze said:

NCAA 8-6-a(3) (When Runners are out on Appeals) says: 

He touched each base in order - where would you point to that says he is out on appeal?

You can point to sections where retreating re-instates any force (yes, I know there wasn't a force in your specific play, but the concept applies), and the sections where a runner must touch bases in order when retreating as pointing to  the need to touch again when advancing.

[Mizzou2016]

How about a runner creating his own base path until a play is attempted on him - you could argue that a runner could round third, go into left field and then advance home as long as no following runner passes him. 

@grayhawk

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Let's take this to the extreme.  The runner makes it all the way back to within a step of second base and then cuts straight towards home running over the pitcher's mound

I would even assume that is legal too, under the rules I'm reading - as long as he doesn't touch 2nd - He still touched the bases in order. 

Anyone know of an MLB interp for this? 


 

[grayhawk]

3 minutes ago, StevenCraze said:

How about a runner creating his own base path until a play is attempted on him - you could argue that a runner could round third, go into left field and then advance home as long as no following runner passes him. 

@grayhawk

I would even assume that is legal too, under the rules I'm reading - as long as he doesn't touch 2nd - He still touched the bases in order. 

Anyone know of an MLB interp for this? 


 

 OFF INTERP 9-5: WENDELSTEDT: A runner who misses a base may correct his violation, regardless of whether he has passed or missed the base on multiple occasions, or if he makes no attempt to touch the base, as long as he touches the base on his last time by. (WRIM/§ 8.4.3.b/p. 168/^A9/p. 191)

[maven]

36 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

 OFF INTERP 9-5: WENDELSTEDT: A runner who misses a base may correct his violation, regardless of whether he has passed or missed the base on multiple occasions, or if he makes no attempt to touch the base, as long as he touches the base on his last time by. (WRIM/§ 8.4.3.b/p. 168/^A9/p. 191)

It's worth pointing out the difference between pro ball and amateur ball here.

In pro ball, we don't worry about a "gross miss" of a base. Runners must touch all bases in order (advancing or retreating), or be liable to be called out on appeal. A gross miss (either direction) confers no advantage, as runners must touch 'em all (LTB) or be out on appeal. We care about touching in order, and that's it.

In amateur ball, we care not only about runners touching bases, but sportsmanship as well. The concept of ruling runners out on appeal for a "gross miss" — even if they subsequently touch the grossly missed base — is grounded in the idea that the runner has cheated. There's no other reason for calling all such runners out.

Codes that have a "gross miss" provision are thus more suitable for amateur ball.

[Mizzou2016]

1 minute ago, maven said:

It's worth pointing out the difference between pro ball and amateur ball here.

In pro ball, we don't worry about a "gross miss" of a base. Runners must touch all bases in order (advancing or retreating), or be liable to be called out on appeal. A gross miss (either direction) confers no advantage, as runners must touch 'em all (LTB) or be out on appeal. We care about touching in order, and that's it.

In amateur ball, we care not only about runners touching bases, but sportsmanship as well. The concept of ruling runners out on appeal for a "gross miss" — even if they subsequently touch the grossly missed base — is grounded in the idea that the runner has cheated. There's no other reason for calling all such runners out.

Codes that have a "gross miss" provision are thus more suitable for amateur ball.

So what's your take on the original situation? It may seem at a glance R2 has cheated by cutting across the cutout, but it is not really a 'gross miss' since he touched it, just didn't re-touch it after starting the retreat.

[noumpere]

16 minutes ago, StevenCraze said:

So what's your take on the original situation? It may seem at a glance R2 has cheated by cutting across the cutout, but it is not really a 'gross miss' since he touched it, just didn't re-touch it after starting the retreat.

If he "could have touched it but stepped over or adjacent to the base" == it's not a gross miss.  If he's so far away that he couldn't have touched it even if he wanted to, it's a "gross miss."

[Mister B]

So, my take is, had the runner missed 3B on his return, but passed directly over it, there would be no out on appeal as he had touched and had gone by close enough. But if it was a gross miss, he would be called out on appeal for not even trying to touch the base. 

Correct? 

There is no penalty for him touching 3B a second time, so for my little league players, just teach them touch the base again. Correct? 

[maven]

1 hour ago, StevenCraze said:

So what's your take on the original situation? It may seem at a glance R2 has cheated by cutting across the cutout, but it is not really a 'gross miss' since he touched it, just didn't re-touch it after starting the retreat.

You asked about NCAA, which I do not know like the back of my hand.

If NCAA has the "gross miss" provision, then this action satisfies it. The provision is not a supplement to, nor is an infraction nullified by, "last time by."

As for criteria: for me, a gross miss is one farther than about 3 feet, which I take to be consistent with noumpere's "could have touched it but stepped over or adjacent to the base." Benefit of the doubt to the runner regarding the grossity of his miss.

[Mizzou2016]

None of these really addresses the initial question. 

Last time by usually refers to correcting base running errors. e.g. R2 misses third, retreats directly to 2nd, then touches it on his 'last time by' when he rounds it on the way home again.

But in this case, he hasn't committed a base running error - he touched the bases in order. 

The case I can see being made, is if he is running in reverse order to confuse the defense, or to make a travesty of the game. Neither of those seem to apply here though.

What would make this situation different, in regards to the rules, than taking a huge turn around 3rd base thus creating his own base path? Am I getting too hung up on this part?

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As for criteria: for me, a gross miss is one farther than about 3 feet, which I take to be consistent with noumpere's "could have touched it but stepped over or adjacent to the base." Benefit of the doubt to the runner regarding the grossity of his miss.

I think the interp if I'm remembering correctly is less than a body's length (Don't have the BRD handy, but I read it in there - can not remember the rule set it applied to.)
 

[Senor Azul]

NCAA rule 8-1a

Legal Order of Bases

SECTION 1. a. The runner must touch each base in legal order (first, second, third and home) and, when obliged to return while the ball is in play, must retouch the base or bases in reverse order.

A.R. All base runners must touch their advance base.

PENALTY—For failure to touch a base advancing or returning: The runner is out if touched by the ball in the hands of a fielder before returning to each untouched base. If the base missed was one to which the runner was forced, the runner is out when tagged or if the ball is held by a fielder on any base the runner failed to touch (including home plate) (see 8-6-a-[4]).

[grayhawk]

Steven, I understand what you are saying, but my main point is that the runner retreated back towards second base (on the second base side of third), so by going home without touching third base again, he has not touched it on his last time by, which is an infraction.  That's why I bolded the following:

"regardless of whether he has passed or missed the base on multiple occasions, or if he makes no attempt to touch the base, as long as he touches the base on his last time by.

The above appears to state that whether not not the runner has touched the base previously, he must still touch it on his last time by whether advancing or returning.  I don't even think the "gross miss" aspect even matters.  From his position between second and third, he advanced home without touching third.  The fact that he touched it previously does not absolve him from the need to touch it on his last time by.  I am open to other opinions on this, but I believe I am interpreting it correctly.

[noumpere]

16 hours ago, StevenCraze said:

What would make this situation different, in regards to the rules, than taking a huge turn around 3rd base thus creating his own base path? Am I getting too hung up on this part?

 

I think you are thinking too hard.  Sometimes you need to umpire -- and as a practical matter you can tell when a runner is "making his own path" or "returning to a previous base."

 

And, as a practical matter, I've never seen a gross miss (so maybe it was a gross miss on my part of the gross miss on the team's part.).  There are teams (mostly at HS) who teach kids to cut the corner when the umpire isn't looking (usually a bunt down the first base line and R1 cuts the corner at second or R2 cuts the corner at third and continues to the next base).

I do seem to recall (now, having thought about it more) that NCAA DOES NOT have the "gross miss" philosophy -- and that ANY base running error can be correct on the last time by.

[Senor Azul]

From the 2016 edition of the Baseball Rules Differences (section 5, pp. 17-19):

Appeals:  Last Time By

FED:  If a runner, either advancing or returning, correctly touches a base that was missed the last time he passes by that base, his final touch corrects any previous baserunning infraction. (8-2-6L; 8.2.6H; Website 2011 #15)  EXCEPT:

Official Interpretation: Hopkins:  “Last time by” does not apply when a runner misses a base to gain an unfair advantage. (Website 2011 #16 and 18)

NCAA:  Same as FED. (2-52) Official Interpretation:  Paronto:  Same as FED official interpretation. (10/17/13)

Play 4-5:  R1 leaves too soon on a fly ball. He touches second and advances near third when he realizes he must return and does so by running directly across the diamond toward first. The ball gets by F3; and R1 after retouching first, makes it safely to second. The defense appeals that he missed second, the base on which he now stands, during his return to first.  RULING:  In FED and NCAA, the umpire will uphold the appeal. At those levels “last time by” applies to situations where the runner could have touched the base but missed it by less than his body’s length. In OBR, the appeal is denied, and the runner is not out.