Scorebook outside

[Jimurray]

We used to enforce no communication with the dugout and outside scorebook in Little League. Can't find where it says that is not allowed. 

[elares]

This from my 2015 LL book.

LL 3.09  Players, managers and coaches of the participating teams shall not address, or mingle with spectators, not sit in the stands during a game in which they are engaged. Managers or coaches must not warm up a pitcher at home plate or in the bull pen or elsewhere at any time.  They may, however, stand by to observe a pitcher during warmup in the bullpen."

 

[Senor Azul]

Rule 3.17 and following penalty and note (on p.77 in the 2016 edition).

[Rich Ives]

1) 3.09 The scorekeeper isn't a spectator.

2) 3.17 says who can be IN the dugout and prohibits the use of electronic equipment to communicate.

3) Worry about things worth worrying bout.

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, Rich Ives said:

1) 3.09 The scorekeeper isn't a spectator.

2) 3.17 says who can be IN the dugout and prohibits the use of electronic equipment to communicate.

3) Worry about things worth worrying bout.

Are you saying a team can have 3 coaches in the dugout and keep another scorekeeper in the stands and they can confer with that scorekeeper as needed? 

[stkjock]

6 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

Are you saying a team can have 3 coaches in the dugout and keep another scorekeeper in the stands and they can confer with that scorekeeper as needed? 

I'm guessing this is tournament ball, Yes, based on my experience, in 3 yrs or Williamsport involvement, however, usually the SK is not "in the stands" he's near the dugout, either by the fence or in the bird's nest behind the back stop.  There is constant communication between the HC and SK, subs, pitch counts, opponent's position in the batting order... etc

[Jimurray]

9 minutes ago, stkjock said:

I'm guessing this is tournament ball, Yes, based on my experience, in 3 yrs or Williamsport involvement, however, usually the SK is not "in the stands" he's near the dugout, either by the fence or in the bird's nest behind the back stop.  There is constant communication between the HC and SK, subs, pitch counts, opponent's position in the batting order... etc

So they can communicate, just not electronically. Seems a myth has morphed in my neck of the woods in years past.

[stkjock]

4 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

So they can communicate, just not electronically. Seems a myth has morphed in my neck of the woods in years past.

based on my experience, yes, communication is allowed.  I know of no rule to prevent it.  The electronic issue is for the entire coaching staff.

[Rich Ives]

34 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

Are you saying a team can have 3 coaches in the dugout and keep another scorekeeper in the stands and they can confer with that scorekeeper as needed? 

Don't go there.  Neither team will complain because they are both doing it.

[Jimurray]

The word I get in this region is it's not allowed. LL limits teams to 3 coaches and this would be a fourth if communication was allowed.

[stkjock]

38 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

The word I get in this region is it's not allowed. LL limits teams to 3 coaches and this would be a fourth if communication was allowed.

I find no such rule in the green book or RIM

can they get a ruling from WP?

[blue23ll]

In my experience with tournament ball, the scorekeepers for both teams would sit in a central spot, usually in a booth or area near the plate area. That way, managers and umpires know where they are and can communicate with them. They are not spectators, they are 'officials'. 

[stkjock]

14 minutes ago, blue23ll said:

In my experience with tournament ball, the scorekeepers for both teams would sit in a central spot, usually in a booth or area near the plate area. That way, managers and umpires know where they are and can communicate with them. They are not spectators, they are 'officials'. 

That's consistent with my experience as well. 

[Jimurray]

29 minutes ago, stkjock said:

That's consistent with my experience as well. 

Can those scorekeeper a go to the dugout at will and advise the manager as to MPR or other strategy

[stkjock]

In my experience, if they are more centralized, the coach will come to the area the SK is to communicate.  I've never seen it an issue in at least 15 games I've been a SK, coach or TD.  

 

In in fact today I was at two WP games, in both the SK was either at or in the dugout, now that's probably a weak TD, but again not a issue here anyway. 

[kylejt]

Let's clear this up, shall we?

There is one official scorekeeper for the game. 

If a team is keeping a book, as they should, it has to be by one of the three coaches within the dugout. 

"..address or mingle..." is about the players and coaches talking to the folks outside the fences. 

Here's the big one, that many experienced LL guys fail on. Spectators, including anyone keeping a book, can shout in things to the field. Like "Appeal at first", "He missed the plate", or "that's batting out of order, Skipper". Nothing wrong with that. That's neither addressing or mingling on the players/coaches part. 

So, the manager can't asking anyone outside the fences about batting out of order, but the folks outside can certainly let him know. 

 

Classic situation: 2001 game in Williamsport. The Bronx vs. Oceanside, CA, on ESPN. R1 misses second base, but no one the park notices. Instant replay showes the miss on TV, and cell phones in the park start ringing from calls from 3000 miles away. The CA fans start shouting "He missed second! Appeal it!". They do, but U2 missed it, too, and the runner went on to score the only run of the game. 

 

[Jimurray]

21 minutes ago, kylejt said:

Let's clear this up, shall we?

There is one official scorekeeper for the game. 

If a team is keeping a book, as they should, it has to be by one of the three coaches within the dugout. 

"..address or mingle..." is about the players and coaches talking to the folks outside the fences. 

Here's the big one, that many experienced LL guys fail on. Spectators, including anyone keeping a book, can shout in things to the field. Like "Appeal at first", "He missed the plate", or "that's batting out of order, Skipper". Nothing wrong with that. That's neither addressing or mingling on the players/coaches part. 

So, the manager can't asking anyone outside the fences about batting out of order, but the folks outside can certainly let him know. 

 

Classic situation: 2001 game in Williamsport. The Bronx vs. Oceanside, CA, on ESPN. R1 misses second base, but no one the park notices. Instant replay showes the miss on TV, and cell phones in the park start ringing from calls from 3000 miles away. The CA fans start shouting "He missed second! Appeal it!". They do, but U2 missed it, too, and the runner went on to score the only run of the game. 

 

Why should a team keep a book if a scorekeeper can keep one next to the dugout and let the coach know what's going on without the coach having to initiate the conversation. LL should just allow 3 coaches and a scorekeeper in the dugout. Wonder what the rationale was originally for the limitation.

[stkjock]

This is starting to sound like a regional thing to me, in my experience, as described, each each team typically has a SK, separate from the 3 coaches, they always communicate, keep track of subs for both teams, min play requirements, special runners, pitch count totals   

 

And yes the TD as an official SK as well   So three books are kept.  

 

so,at least here in the NY metro area, this is the norm.  

[SJA]

Under WP LL Definitions Rule 2.00:

BENCH or DUGOUT is the seating facilities reserved for players, substitutes, one manager, and not more than two coaches when they are not actively engaged on the playing field. Batboys and/or batgirls are not permitted.
A.R.—Bench or dugout is not for additional coaches or scorekeepers.
 

 

[stkjock]

Agreed, again, IME, the SK is not in the dugout, however they are close enough to converse. 

[kylejt]

Or, have one of the coaches in the dugout keep a book.

[Rich Ives]

2 hours ago, kylejt said:

Or, have one of the coaches in the dugout keep a book.

He's supposed to be coaching, not being tied up with a book. 

[kylejt]

First, I'm no fan of the zero communication rule. We had a case where a local tyrant actually ejected a manager for talking to his grandmother a full 1/2 hour before a game. It's just stupid how some local folks take this waaaaaaay too far. 

 

IMO, the rule was to keep the participants in the dugout, and on the field. And to keep them from inciting the crowd. The bonus for the coaches and manager is that it keeps the parents off their back. That's the selling point to the manager. "Sorry Mom, we're not allow to talk about your son's playing time during the game". 

 

I've been to some districts that allow a team scorekeeper outside the fence, and some that do not. So it is a regional thing. My local, because we prepare our coaches for post season play beyond our district, doesn't allow the coaches to communicate game stuff outside the fences ( Like "Who should be up?", or "did they bat out of order?"). Saying "HI!" to the wife won't get you the boot, though. 

[LRZ]

I am primarily concerned with what happens on the field (i.e., safe/out, ball/strike, obstruction, etc.) and between dugout and field (i.e., chirping); if I have to worry about interactions between coaches and stands, including scorekeepers, that detracts from my more important (i.e., game management) responsibilities. 

But I don't work LL, so I may be misconstruing the scope of the umpire's duties in LL.

[Jimurray]

22 minutes ago, LRZ said:

I am primarily concerned with what happens on the field (i.e., safe/out, ball/strike, obstruction, etc.) and between dugout and field (i.e., chirping); if I have to worry about interactions between coaches and stands, including scorekeepers, that detracts from my more important (i.e., game management) responsibilities. 

But I don't work LL, so I may be misconstruing the scope of the umpire's duties in LL.

Umpires in my neck of the woods are not required to police things like that. The TDs take care of that. My question was for TD enlightenment.