Play at Home and U1 Positioning - Texas Tech vs ECU

[LaskoFan]

New to umpiring this year and was watching Texas Tech and East Carolina game yesterday.  Texas Tech up, Top of 9th with 2-outs, 1-1 game with R1 and R2.  Hit down the first base line off F3's glove.  Ball is fair and bounces into foul territory up the first base line.  R2 tries to score.  Ball arrives before runner but catcher has to pivot to put the tag down.  Runner gets in prior to the tag, reply shows it better than attached.  Sorry, could not find reply online to share.  

Really my question is why would the U1 be in the position he is in?  He is totally blocked by the catcher in this position and there is no way he saw the play.  I have been doing a lot or reading regarding U1 positioning for calls at the plate and there is a lot of different thoughts.  No doubt he would have been in much better position to see the action in 1st base extended.  As a plate ump, how do you know where to position yourself for the best position for the call?  What goes through your head to determine the best angle?  

 

  

[Kevin_K]

See this

 

 

[LaskoFan]

Thanks for the link Kevin_K, If I understand it correctly, the wedge, you try and get 90 degrees to the throw and mirror the inside hip of the catcher in order to get the best angle for the call.  I don't know if I have that correct.  With the above play, where the throw came from foul territory, 1st base line, you would want to be near the 3BX line for the call.  Does that make sense?  

[maven]

1 hour ago, LaskoFan said:

With the above play, where the throw came from foul territory, 1st base line, you would want to be near the 3BX line for the call.

That's going to make the wedge difficult to work: we have to stay back along 3BLX to be clear of F2 receiving the throw. When he spins to make a tag, we're left in the position of the PU in the photo, with no opportunity to rotate toward fair. And if we do have time to rotate, we're so far from the plate (again, see the photo), that we would have to be running to get to position, and that's a poor way to read the play.

One idea is to stay at 3BLX for the throw, and then, given a good throw, take a read step or 2 directly toward the plate for the tag. That's a "reverse wedge" concept, where instead of moving to open the space between F2 and runner from the inside, we open that space from the outside and above. As long as we get a view of that space, we'll see the tag.

I would characterize this as an "advanced mechanic," more likely than the standard "wedge" to straightline a PU. It's akin to the play where F4 fields a ball to his left and drives the BU into foul for the play at 1B. That mechanic too, giving an unfamiliar look, can flummox an umpire on non-routine plays.

[johnnyg08]

I think he over rotated on this play.  If he stays point of plate or even strict 3BLX, I think he sees the left hand.

He'd probably be the first to say so too.  Hell, the guy is working a Super.

 

 

[LaskoFan]

10 hours ago, maven said:

One idea is to stay at 3BLX for the throw, and then, given a good throw, take a read step or 2 directly toward the plate for the tag.  As long as we get a view of that space, we'll see the tag.

 

I see what you are saying.  3BLX for the throw and then a couple of steps towards the point of the plate to see the tag.  One question I have, what would be the harm of just sitting back behind the point of the plate and watching the throw and play develop in front of you?  You could step up and get a good view of the tag when required.  Should we always get to a point to see the catch and then ensuing plate action?    

[LaskoFan]

9 hours ago, johnnyg08 said:

I think he over rotated on this play.  If he stays point of plate or even strict 3BLX, I think he sees the left hand.

He'd probably be the first to say so too.  Hell, the guy is working a Super.

 

 

Yes pretty hard to believe that he got caught in this position.  There is no way he saw the tag.  I guess the good news is that when I saw it live, I realized he made an error and was not in position to make the call.  Prior to umpiring this year I probably would not have been as observant.  

[maven]

3 minutes ago, LaskoFan said:

I see what you are saying.  3BLX for the throw and then a couple of steps towards the point of the plate to see the tag.  One question I have, what would be the harm of just sitting back behind the point of the plate and watching the throw and play develop in front of you?  You could step up and get a good view of the tag when required.  Should we always get to a point to see the catch and then ensuing plate action?    

We still have responsibilities for ruling on OBS on this play. 3BLX affords a view of the approaching runner and F2's position relative to the plate.

The primary reason for starting at POP for plays at the plate was back in the day of collision plays, where we'd take those from 1BLX. That play is now illegal at every level, which makes 3BLX the place to start. The ball might be coming from anywhere, but that runner is always coming from 3B.

The only good reasons not to get there would be (1) when the ball itself is coming from 3BLX, and we don't want to be in between the ball and F2, and (2) not having time, for instance on a bases-loaded force at the plate. That play has low probability of OBS anyway, so stepping back and ruling on the force play makes perfect sense.

[LaskoFan]

2 minutes ago, maven said:

We still have responsibilities for ruling on OBS on this play. 3BLX affords a view of the approaching runner and F2's position relative to the plate.

The primary reason for starting at POP for plays at the plate was back in the day of collision plays, where we'd take those from 1BLX. That play is now illegal at every level, which makes 3BLX the place to start. The ball might be coming from anywhere, but that runner is always coming from 3B.

The only good reasons not to get there would be (1) when the ball itself is coming from 3BLX, and we don't want to be in between the ball and F2, and (2) not having time, for instance on a bases-loaded force at the plate. That play has low probability of OBS anyway, so stepping back and ruling on the force play makes perfect sense.

Thanks Maven, that makes total sense and clears thing up for me.  Got to keep perusing these great boards, re-reading all the rules to have them down pat and continue to get some games for experience.   Thanks again.  

[noumpere]

24 minutes ago, maven said:

The primary reason for starting at POP for plays at the plate was back in the day of collision plays, where we'd take those from 1BLX. That play is now illegal at every level, which makes 3BLX the place to start. The ball might be coming from anywhere, but that runner is always coming from 3B.

 

I will add, though, that this play (at least based on the picture) is now the equivalent of the collision play.  So, if F2 has to reach down the first base line for the ball, then the play he's going to make is going to be to swipe back toward the corner of the plate.  The umpire needs to move to see that.  It's (likely) not going to be a swipe at the side of a runner who is in turn running wide to avoid the tag (and I am not bringing out of the baseline into this discussion).

 

I will also add that the play can turn from one into another in the blink of an eye and what was a good  position becomes bad.  IT happens.

[Mussgrass]

Does any of this change at the younger youth levels, where skills on both sides of the ball can vary widely?

[maven]

1 hour ago, Mussgrass said:

Does any of this change at the younger youth levels, where skills on both sides of the ball can vary widely?

The umpire's skills can vary widely too. But the question to ask is: is that runner still coming from 3B?

[Minnz]

The wedge talk is for sure interesting. The bigger issue today is the lack of 360 umpiring done at home plate. 3BLX is a starting spot not a finishing spot necessarily. Start there and key off the catcher. The tighter you can get to right off his hip (usually his left) the better you can see the tag and touch of plate. Always be a 360 umpire at the plate.

[Kevin_K]

I might suggest that the point of the plate is the starting point and let F2's actions guide you. Why move to 3BLX if there is no need to?

If F2 moves up 3B line, you need to gain the ground you gave up moving to 3BLX.

 

[maven]

1 hour ago, Kevin_K said:

Why move to 3BLX if there is no need to?

You're at least the 2nd person in the thread to ask this question.

The answer is: in general, we still need to rule on OBS at the plate, and 3BLX offers the best view of the approaching runner and F2 relative to the plate.

For some plays, 3BLX is not practical, but there is almost always a reason to be there.

[ricka56]

19 minutes ago, maven said:

You're at least the 2nd person in the thread to ask this question.

The answer is: in general, we still need to rule on OBS at the plate, and 3BLX offers the best view of the approaching runner and F2 relative to the plate.

For some plays, 3BLX is not practical, but there is almost always a reason to be there.

I disagree. There is time to get to 3BLX (if needed) if you start from POP. 

In the OP, PU goes to 3BLX for a throw coming from his right. So if he is getting a read on the throw (head turned to the right), he can't easily see where F2 is setting up (possible obstruction). If he is at POP (or a step to the left) he can read the throw and see F2 giving access to all of HP. He can then adjust as needed (on this play none needed).