Balk controversy: disengage or jump turn?

[johnnyg08]

I've balked this before and it's not an enjoyable time.  

[GoodCallBlue!]

On ‎6‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 3:06 PM, maven said:

When both feet move or are airborne together, it's a move from the rubber. When F1 feints, it's a balk.

And you got that ruling where?

[noumpere]

11 hours ago, GoodCallBlue! said:

And you got that ruling where?

From reading the various rules and definitions of "disengaging" -- and then applying the "opposite" to what happens when it's not a legal disengagement (e.g., "both feet move or are airborne together").

[GoodCallBlue!]

42 minutes ago, noumpere said:

On ‎6‎/‎6‎/‎2016 at 2:29 PM, maven said:

This is on my list of topics for discussion in our association next season. We need a principled way to distinguish disengaging from a jump turn: I saw this move done by HS pitchers several times this season. I was lucky: they all threw the ball. I'm not looking forward to calling this balk, which "everybody knows isn't a balk."

Apparently I don't know the new technique for embedding MLB video....

http://m.mlb.com/video/v427297983

From reading the various rules and definitions of "disengaging" -- and then applying the "opposite" to what happens when it's not a legal disengagement (e.g., "both feet move or are airborne together").

So in REAL TIME, can you honestly say you saw both feet in the air at the same time? I highly doubt it! And this is a video where we know something is about to happen.

[noumpere]

I had it as a balk the first time I saw it.  That isn't to say that I've never missed a balk on the field.

[maineump]

Balk - Both feet on a jump turn and he separated his hands prior to his feet landing.

[maven]

Honestly? Yes.

Please don't ask me to lie to the forum. I have an anonymous username and reputation to maintain.

[maquinn78]

On 7/1/2016 at 8:51 AM, umpire_scott said:

2.  I have heard the common theme of it being impossible to balk to second base.  Well it seems to me if you you can balk to first by jump turning and feinting the throw because you are still engaged with the rubber, then why can't you turn to second and still be engaged with the rubber and thus balk? 

Youth baseball game with a runner on 2nd. Pitcher went to to do the spin and throw. I'm BU, he does it and it looks really weird to me, but I don't say anything.

Partner calls time and comes out to me, with a smile on his face. Tells me he turned the wrong way and didn't move his back foot. I knew that looked odd...

[maven]

1 hour ago, maquinn78 said:

Partner calls time and comes out to me, with a smile on his face. Tells me he turned the wrong way and didn't move his back foot. I knew that looked odd...

Maybe the smile meant that he was full of shît? No rule dictates which way he can turn (in coachspeak: the "inside" and the "outside" moves are both legal), nor does it require him to move his "back" or pivot foot.

I have to wonder what IHSA is up to over there....

[Richvee]

13 hours ago, GoodCallBlue! said:

So in REAL TIME, can you honestly say you saw both feet in the air at the same time? I highly doubt it! And this is a video where we know something is about to happen.

Maybe not. But in real time it's clear pivot foot does not move off the back of the rubber prior to the free foot stepping to 1st. Yes, we give some  leeway on this, but when the step with the free foot to first and the step back with the pivot foot are simultaneous, it's a move from the rubber. 

[GoodCallBlue!]

1 hour ago, Richvee said:

Maybe not. But in real time it's clear pivot foot does not move off the back of the rubber prior to the free foot stepping to 1st. Yes, we give some  leeway on this, but when the step with the free foot to first and the step back with the pivot foot are simultaneous, it's a move from the rubber. 

And its so CLEAR to see right because we all know since its a video clip that something is going to happen, right? But in real time & not knowing when something like this is going to happen, you can honestly say you are going to see this happen CLEARLY? I call BULL.

[GoodCallBlue!]

13 hours ago, maineump said:

Balk - Both feet on a jump turn and he separated his hands prior to his feet landing.

So you can see his feet landing AND when he separates his hands? you must be SUPERMAN with that kind of vision! LOL

[Stk004]

1 minute ago, GoodCallBlue! said:

And its so CLEAR to see right because we all know since its a video clip that something is going to happen, right? But in real time & not knowing when something like this is going to happen, you can honestly say you are going to see this happen CLEARLY? I call BULL.

If I was a spectator at a game and saw this move, followed by no balk call, I'd be shocked and asking everyone around me "How's that not a balk?!" So yes, I have a balk.

[GoodCallBlue!]

Just now, Stk004 said:

If I was a spectator at a game and saw this move, followed by no balk call, I'd be shocked and asking everyone around me "How's that not a balk?!" So yes, I have a balk.

I call "BULL".....U wouldn't see it coming. U don't know when its gonna happen & it happens so quickly.

[Stk004]

1 minute ago, GoodCallBlue! said:

I call "BULL".....U wouldn't see it coming. U don't know when its gonna happen & it happens so quickly.

It's a jump turn with no throw to 1st. 

[GoodCallBlue!]

Just now, Stk004 said:

It's a jump turn with no throw to 1st. 

But actually his pivot lands behind the rubber. He initially moves his pivot foot first. Look again.

[Stk004]

2 minutes ago, GoodCallBlue! said:

But actually his pivot lands behind the rubber. He initially moves his pivot foot first. Look again.

When I watch it I don't see a disengagement then a move to first, I see it as one move to first. 

[GoodCallBlue!]

Just now, Stk004 said:

When I watch it I don't see a disengagement then a move to first, I see it as one move to first. 

U get to look at a replay. Try seeing it live & when U are not expecting it. Then U are going to call it a balk? I call bull.

[GoodCallBlue!]

5 minutes ago, Stk004 said:

When I watch it I don't see a disengagement then a move to first, I see it as one move to first. 

The camera also isn't a great angle. But try calling that.

[Stk004]

Just now, GoodCallBlue! said:

the camera also isn't a great angle. But try calling that.

If you feel like real time that's a balk that's gonna be missed so be it. And yes while we didn't experience it live without any expectations, I like to think I'd call a balk. Maybe you're right and I would miss it, but at the levels I work this is a move that a lot of kids employ and rarely do they actually disengage. 

[GoodCallBlue!]

1 minute ago, Stk004 said:

If you feel like real time that's a balk that's gonna be missed so be it. And yes while we didn't experience it live without any expectations, I like to think I'd call a balk. Maybe you're right and I would miss it, but at the levels I work this is a move that a lot of kids employ and rarely do they actually disengage. 

Missed? No. You going to tell me that you CLEARLY see a balk especially at real time when U are not expecting to see it in a video clip?

[Stk004]

16 minutes ago, GoodCallBlue! said:

Missed? No. You going to tell me that you CLEARLY see a balk especially at real time when U are not expecting to see it in a video clip?

Yes.

[maineump]

5 hours ago, GoodCallBlue! said:

So you can see his feet landing AND when he separates his hands? you must be SUPERMAN with that kind of vision! LOL

The hands are the easy part to spot, and unless you see an obvious step back, he has to jump to get turned that quickly. I only noticed both feet by watching it twice.

[GoodCallBlue!]

2 hours ago, maineump said:

The hands are the easy part to spot, and unless you see an obvious step back, he has to jump to get turned that quickly. I only noticed both feet by watching it twice.

Whatever helps you sleep.

[maven]