Sweet timing

[lawump]

This, my friends, is some pretty sweet timing on a tag play at the plate.

http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/6479266/v434180983/nyybos-bradley-jr-makes-catch-throws-out-bird

 

[grayhawk]

And hard to tell for sure, but rather than asking to see the ball, he adjusted his view and then waited for F2 to show it to him, which is the way to do it.  I'm not a fan of "show me the ball."

[urout17]

Seems to me at the ML level they already know what to do.  Younger players are still learning.

[ElkOil]

I'm not a fan of "show me the ball."

How come?

[grayhawk]

How come?

Tag applied, looks like an out, but umpire can't see if the ball is still in the glove.  "Show me the ball!"  Fielder exposes his glove and the ball comes flying out.  Ruh roh.  I feel that it's much better for the umpire to adjust so he can get a look than asking for the player to do something.

[ElkOil]

Tag applied, looks like an out, but umpire can't see if the ball is still in the glove.  "Show me the ball!"  Fielder exposes his glove and the ball comes flying out.  Ruh roh.  I feel that it's much better for the umpire to adjust so he can get a look than asking for the player to do something.

That's a good point.  I'm now re-thinking my technique.

[noumpere]

That's a good point.  I'm now re-thinking my technique.

Here's another point:

 

Fielder reaches down with his bare hand and grabs the ball from ... the dirt?  .. the glove?  Puts the ball in the glove and then raises the glove?

 

Just find the ball.

[clasonater]

HA ruh roh... that was good.  It cracks me up when its twelve year old tournament time and the whole place freezes before an umpire that uses proper timing cadillacs a routine play at first. 

[ScubaUmp]

This whole crew is working it, watch U3  go out, and U2 move in for possible play back into third.

As for the timing on the play at the plate, Vic Carapazza, Need we say anymore? Awesome!!!!!!

This young man works a game. .

IMHO - He is one to watch, and aspire to be like.

[gclg2000]

This is just an older post I was reviewing, but I was at a camp one time and an official did the "show me the ball, show me the ball!" line and then gave a hard safe.  

It was one of the funniest things I've ever seen.

 

[Cato the Younger]

Tag applied, looks like an out, but umpire can't see if the ball is still in the glove.  "Show me the ball!"  Fielder exposes his glove and the ball comes flying out.  Ruh roh.  I feel that it's much better for the umpire to adjust so he can get a look than asking for the player to do something.

 

Grayhawk I love your posting so, please don't think that I am always looking to disagree with you. But when the fielder exposes his glove, and the ball comes flying out wouldn't that show that it was not complete control and not a voluntary release???? 

I use this all the time at plays at the plate and also at second on steals. The ball comes out like you indicate above........ no problem safe. I have used this technique hundreds of times with no issues other than a coach coming out for an explanation. It then gives me an opportunity to review the elements of tag play including complete control and a voluntary release. This technique encourages good timing and makes a sometimes very difficult call easy. Even by the letter of the rule would be an accurate call. If they have the ball out....no ball safe. The difficult situation becomes less challenging and prevents an umpire from locking up as doubt sets in after the play. 

[grayhawk]

 

Grayhawk I love your posting so, please don't think that I am always looking to disagree with you. But when the fielder exposes his glove, and the ball comes flying out wouldn't that show that it was not complete control and not a voluntary release???? 

I use this all the time at plays at the plate and also at second on steals. The ball comes out like you indicate above........ no problem safe. I have used this technique hundreds of times with no issues other than a coach coming out for an explanation. It then gives me an opportunity to review the elements of tag play including complete control and a voluntary release. This technique encourages good timing and makes a sometimes very difficult call easy. Even by the letter of the rule would be an accurate call. If they have the ball out....no ball safe. The difficult situation becomes less challenging and prevents an umpire from locking up as doubt sets in after the play. 

Do what you want, but saying "show me the ball" is unnecessary and can cause problems as has been described above.  Just find the ball.

[JaxRolo]

I never ask. Just wait till I see it.

[Cato the Younger]

I never ask. Just wait till I see it.

 

Not a bad approach as most will offer it up the ball anyways. 

I still will make the case for asking. You tend to catch way less heat then if you have excellent timing, and there is a noticeable delay before the call.

Crys of......" why did you wait so long .... ask for help" usually following such delays without a verbal on a play that we would praise as excellent timing like in the OP.

I don't have any issues with an umpire not asking but I disagree that it is a flawed or problematic mechanic to ask to see the ball on certain types of tag plays. 

Edited December 2, 2015 by Cato the Younger

[Cato the Younger]

I'll throw another example at you guys for comment regarding a technique that I've used for a long time. Ground ball to the infield........ throw to first base is trapped by first base on the ground just before the batter-runner touches the base. Many times the first baseman will stay stretched out with his glove on the ground looking at you to see what your call is going to be. At this point if I'm working according to the plan I'm in a hands on the set position realizing that I have a situation. Does the first baseman have control?????  This for many umpires is a challenging play but for me a technique makes it relatively simple. My solution? I ask...... "Let's see it?" If the first baseman can lift the ball up, that's control, and I call the runner out. If the ball comes out of the glove or the ball does not come off the ground..... runner is safe. I sell it with a safe signal, a bobble signal and a safe follow-up signal just like many umpires do on the front half of a double play that the ball is bobbled, or dropped. Challenging call suddenly becomes easy.

Sure coaches will come out of the dugout and challenge the call from time to time but again going through the elements of the catch  Including complete control and a voluntary and intentional release and its checkmate by rule and by umpire judgment. This has worked for me for a long time with never causing a problem or even close to an ejection other than one time or I recall a coach complaining that there were six close calls in the game and everyone went against him but that had nothing to do with the validity of this methodology for handling a challenging play that happens several times each season.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Cato the Younger

[grayhawk]

I'll throw another example at you guys for comment regarding a technique that I've used for a long time. Ground ball to the infield........ throw to first base is trapped by first base on the ground just before the batter-runner touches the base. Many times the first baseman will stay stretched out with his glove on the ground looking at you to see what your call is going to be. At this point if I'm working according to the plan I'm in a hands on the set position realizing that I have a situation. Does the first baseman have control?????  This for many umpires is a challenging play but for me a technique makes it relatively simple. My solution? I ask...... "Let's see it?" If the first baseman can lift the ball up, that's control, and I call the runner out. If the ball comes out of the glove or the ball does not come off the ground..... runner is safe. I sell it with a safe signal, a bobble signal and a safe follow-up signal just like many umpires do on the front half of a double play that the ball is bobbled, or dropped. Challenging call suddenly becomes easy.

Sure coaches will come out of the dugout and challenge the call from time to time but again going through the elements of the catch  Including complete control and a voluntary and intentional release and its checkmate by rule and by umpire judgment. This has worked for me for a long time with never causing a problem or even close to an ejection other than one time or I recall a coach complaining that there were six close calls in the game and everyone went against him but that had nothing to do with the validity of this methodology for handling a challenging play that happens several times each season.

You can accomplish all that without asking to see it. It's simply unnecessary and using it as a mechanism to have proper timing is not good either. Timing comes from proper use of eyes. But if it works for you, who am I to say otherwise. I just wouldn't teach it to others.

[lawump]

I'll throw another example at you guys for comment regarding a technique that I've used for a long time. Ground ball to the infield........ throw to first base is trapped by first base on the ground just before the batter-runner touches the base. Many times the first baseman will stay stretched out with his glove on the ground looking at you to see what your call is going to be. At this point if I'm working according to the plan I'm in a hands on the set position realizing that I have a situation. Does the first baseman have control?????  This for many umpires is a challenging play but for me a technique makes it relatively simple. My solution? I ask...... "Let's see it?" If the first baseman can lift the ball up, that's control, and I call the runner out. If the ball comes out of the glove or the ball does not come off the ground..... runner is safe. I sell it with a safe signal, a bobble signal and a safe follow-up signal just like many umpires do on the front half of a double play that the ball is bobbled, or dropped. Challenging call suddenly becomes easy.

Sure coaches will come out of the dugout and challenge the call from time to time but again going through the elements of the catch  Including complete control and a voluntary and intentional release and its checkmate by rule and by umpire judgment. This has worked for me for a long time with never causing a problem or even close to an ejection other than one time or I recall a coach complaining that there were six close calls in the game and everyone went against him but that had nothing to do with the validity of this methodology for handling a challenging play that happens several times each season.

Except that all of this is likely unnecessary in FED as a part of the ball can be on the ground in this situation as long as a part is in the glove.  In FED, the first baseman can "have control" even though a part of the ball is touching the ground.

Just thought I'd throw that out there.

[Replacematt]

Except that all of this is likely unnecessary in FED as a part of the ball can be on the ground in this situation as long as a part is in the glove.  In FED, the first baseman can "have control" even though a part of the ball is touching the ground.

Just thought I'd throw that out there.

Also, the elements of a catch are not relevant to this play except in NCAA.

[lawump]

Also, the elements of a catch are not relevant to this play except in NCAA.

Never leave home without your BRD!

Edited December 3, 2015 by lawump

[Cato the Younger]

Never leave home without your BRD!

Carl is a great resource to the community.

[Cato the Younger]

Also, the elements of a catch are not relevant to this play except in NCAA.

Agreed by letter rule, you are correct. But the key element is still showing the umpire that he has control. This method of handling this play makes a very challenging play less difficult. This would be something I would think you would appreciate.

One of the more difficult force play calls for a base umpire is when the throw is in the dirt...... ball still beats the runner, but the first base person does not glove it cleanly. A lot is going on with a runner nearing the base, sometimes with a fielder scrambling and you are keeping track of two key elements at the same time..... ball and runner. 

Asking "to see it" when the runner is now long passed the base adds a great deal of creditability to having slow timing and processing a very tough call. It also makes life easier. If he keeps the ball in glove, you have an out. Ball comes out safe. What can they argue? Only that the runner beat it or the old "cop out" for umpires with poor timing that "he had it long enough". But after the token complaints everything simmers down. The guys with just slow timing that don't sell the call with a good verbal catch a lot more heat. 

You can handle this play however you want, but I offer this up as something that has rule support and has worked very well for me over many seasons at multiple levels including high school and college. 

[Replacematt]

I cannot believe this has worked for you at the college level. I am only slightly less incredulous this works for you at the HS level. Any college coach worth his paycheck (and most of them are) would eat you alive for telling a player of his to do something in the middle of game play.

There is no, I say again, no reason to ask a player to show you the ball. They aren't going to sit motionless until dark. Let the play and and its relevant aftermath lead you to water. There is a huge downside to asking, though, and that is that the player's response may very well change the evidence of possession/non-possession and affect follow-on plays.

[Cato the Younger]

I cannot believe this has worked for you at the college level. I am only slightly less incredulous this works for you at the HS level. Any college coach worth his paycheck (and most of them are) would eat you alive for telling a player of his to do something in the middle of game play.

LOL, I am surprised you would say that. You strike me as more the type of umpire that manages his games. I guess I was wrong. 

Coaching do not get the chance to "eat me alive" your words not mine. They will be on there way to the parking if they get out of line. Sure on a few situations there were some ugly situations with a few "gladiators with the courage to be slayed" Umpires that have watched me work love or hate me would never would describe a situation I was "eaten alive." Are there situations I was too heavy-handed definitely, "Eaten alive" sorry wrong umpire. 

 I'm not the silent type. I ask players to do things all the time. I always ask nicely and then proceed accordingly.

Besides "show me the ball" and "lets see it" as described above I complemented fielders for putting the ball down next to the base as I have posted about in other threads.

I routinely ask catchers not to pull pitches but frame them instead. Pull the pitch into the zone with me that's a ball every time. I tell the catcher and his coach to discontinue that action with me. There situations that they do not like it. They may not agree with my philosophy but that's the way it's going to be today. 

I tell them we can get all pissy about something that is not going to change or we can move on. Sure I have had a few ejections but everyone understand where I am at. I am confident I have way fewer problems then the current crop of umpires afraid to say anything because they are afraid they will lose there schedule in some coveted league or conference because a coach has some issues with the umpire actually running his or her game.

Edited December 8, 2015 by Cato the Younger

[basejester]

Several years ago, I said, "Show me the ball," during a game with very players.  The runner helpfully produced it for my inspection.

 

[Replacematt]

LOL, I am surprised you would say that. You strike me as more the type of umpire that manages his games.

I do manage my games. I've had exactly one collegiate ejection and none that I wish I had gotten (and with a particular coach who came up the ranks at the same time I did, it's amazing I haven't had more.) What I don't do is manage the players.