Situational awareness

[renegadewolf]

Playing OBR ,2 out, count is 2-1 with R2.  Next pitch PU erroneously calls strike 3 complete with a bang out.  Defense proceeds to start leaving the field, R2 leaves the field but the batter stays on the field to argue that the count  was wrong it was only strike 2.  Moments later PU recognizes his error and calls everyone back onto the field including R2.  I went in to talk to my partner, the point I was trying to make to him was the regardless of the incorrect call being made, the offense is still responsible for situational awareness and R2 should be called out on abandoning the base.  My partner replied that he "called time" so we just put everyone back where they were however time was never called (after all why call time on strike 3 of the 3rd out?).  Am I just looking to pick up a dirty stick here or would abandoning the base be the appropriate call?

[Replacematt]

Playing OBR ,2 out, count is 2-1 with R2.  Next pitch PU erroneously calls strike 3 complete with a bang out.  Defense proceeds to start leaving the field, R2 leaves the field but the batter stays on the field to argue that the count  was wrong it was only strike 2.  Moments later PU recognizes his error and calls everyone back onto the field including R2.  I went in to talk to my partner, the point I was trying to make to him was the regardless of the incorrect call being made, the offense is still responsible for situational awareness and R2 should be called out on abandoning the base.  My partner replied that he "called time" so we just put everyone back where they were however time was never called (after all why call time on strike 3 of the 3rd out?).  Am I just looking to pick up a dirty stick here or would abandoning the base be the appropriate call?

Dirty end of the stick. Partner F*#Ked up, everyone reacted, reset and play on. If the confusion was caused by someone else (i.e. defense leaving the field with only 2 out, batter thinking it was strike three, etc.) then it's a potential abandonment issue.

[JaxRolo]

Well, if he did call strike 3. That means that it is now between innings thus the ball is dead!

automatic Time.

[ricka56]

Playing OBR ,2 out, count is 2-1 with R2.  Next pitch PU erroneously calls strike 3 complete with a bang out.  Defense proceeds to start leaving the field, R2 leaves the field but the batter stays on the field to argue that the count  was wrong it was only strike 2.  Moments later PU recognizes his error and calls everyone back onto the field including R2.  I went in to talk to my partner, the point I was trying to make to him was the regardless of the incorrect call being made, the offense is still responsible for situational awareness and R2 should be called out on abandoning the base.  My partner replied that he "called time" so we just put everyone back where they were however time was never called (after all why call time on strike 3 of the 3rd out?).  Am I just looking to pick up a dirty stick here or would abandoning the base be the appropriate call?

So your partner screwed up and you're  by trying to talk him into an abandonment call ? NICE ! 

Your partner called TIME...I heard him.

[Magic]

Playing OBR ,2 out, count is 2-1 with R2. Next pitch PU erroneously calls strike 3 complete with a bang out. Defense proceeds to start leaving the field, R2 leaves the field but the batter stays on the field to argue that the count was wrong it was only strike 2. Moments later PU recognizes his error and calls everyone back onto the field including R2. I went in to talk to my partner, the point I was trying to make to him was the regardless of the incorrect call being made, the offense is still responsible for situational awareness and R2 should be called out on abandoning the base. My partner replied that he "called time" so we just put everyone back where they were however time was never called (after all why call time on strike 3 of the 3rd out?). Am I just looking to pick up a dirty stick here or would abandoning the base be the appropriate call?

You need to put everyone back and reset. If you try to call R2 out, you will be ejecting a player and a head coach at the least. And all because your partner screwed up? That is the dirty end of the stick, if there ever was one.

[Jocko]

Playing OBR ,2 out, count is 2-1 with R2.  Next pitch PU erroneously calls strike 3 complete with a bang out.  Defense proceeds to start leaving the field, R2 leaves the field but the batter stays on the field to argue that the count  was wrong it was only strike 2.  Moments later PU recognizes his error and calls everyone back onto the field including R2.  I went in to talk to my partner, the point I was trying to make to him was the regardless of the incorrect call being made, the offense is still responsible for situational awareness and R2 should be called out on abandoning the base.  My partner replied that he "called time" so we just put everyone back where they were however time was never called (after all why call time on strike 3 of the 3rd out?).  Am I just looking to pick up a dirty stick here or would abandoning the base be the appropriate call?

[renegadewolf]

Just to be clear, R2 was put back at 2nd, batter resumed with proper count, and I appreciate the feedback. On occassion I can make things more complex than they need to be, as i obviously did in this case.

[Senor Azul]

Your scenario illustrates what is called "correctable umpire's error." The OBR supporting the action all your brethren recommend is 9.02c. Here's what that rule says as summarized by Carl Childress in his BRD:

 

"The crew, after consultation, is explicitly empowered to take whatever steps they may deem necessary, in their discretion, to eliminate the results and consequences of an earlier call that they are reversing."

 

Also, here is the PBUC interpretation for this rule:

 

If a runner steps off a base as a result of an umpire's improper call, that is correctable umpire's error, and the umpire should nullify the out."

 

[umpstu]

My best strike three punch outs are on strike two. It's science. Look it up.

[Richvee]

Your scenario illustrates what is called "correctable umpire's error." The OBR supporting the action all your brethren recommend is 9.02c. Here's what that rule says as summarized by Carl Childress in his BRD:

 

"The crew, after consultation, is explicitly empowered to take whatever steps they may deem necessary, in their discretion, to eliminate the results and consequences of an earlier call that they are reversing."

 

Also, here is the PBUC interpretation for this rule:

 

If a runner steps off a base as a result of an umpire's improper call, that is correctable umpire's error, and the umpire should nullify the out."

This brings up something that I have a hard time figuring the logic on. I agree with the above interps, and how to handle an improper call. So my contention is with an appealed strike. MLBUM says, for example, R1, 3-1 count. Runner stealing on the pitch, batter checks his swing PU calls ball four, F2 throws down anyway and R1 is tagged. Now F2 appeals the check swing and U1 says strike. R1 is called out stealing. How is this different? 

[Replacematt]

Your scenario illustrates what is called "correctable umpire's error." The OBR supporting the action all your brethren recommend is 9.02c. Here's what that rule says as summarized by Carl Childress in his BRD:

 

"The crew, after consultation, is explicitly empowered to take whatever steps they may deem necessary, in their discretion, to eliminate the results and consequences of an earlier call that they are reversing."

 

Also, here is the PBUC interpretation for this rule:

 

If a runner steps off a base as a result of an umpire's improper call, that is correctable umpire's error, and the umpire should nullify the out."

This brings up something that I have a hard time figuring the logic on. I agree with the above interps, and how to handle an improper call. So my contention is with an appealed strike. MLBUM says, for example, R1, 3-1 count. Runner stealing on the pitch, batter checks his swing PU calls ball four, F2 throws down anyway and R1 is tagged. Now F2 appeals the check swing and U1 says strike. R1 is called out stealing. How is this different?

Because the rules specifically allow an in-play change on this type of call. MLBUM also says that everyone needs to be aware that a ball four can be changed to a strike. There's no disadvantage because everyone knows (or should know) that PU's call is not final.

[Senor Azul]

Mr. Richvee, your exact play is also used in the BRD. It says that in both NCAA and OBR the runner is out.

 

The reason given is that unlike the play in the original post where an umpire is correcting his own mistake, in your play it is the runner who made a mistake. This reasoning matches up with what Mr. Matt just posted in response to your question.

[Richvee]

 

 

Your scenario illustrates what is called "correctable umpire's error." The OBR supporting the action all your brethren recommend is 9.02c. Here's what that rule says as summarized by Carl Childress in his BRD:

 

"The crew, after consultation, is explicitly empowered to take whatever steps they may deem necessary, in their discretion, to eliminate the results and consequences of an earlier call that they are reversing."

 

Also, here is the PBUC interpretation for this rule:

 

If a runner steps off a base as a result of an umpire's improper call, that is correctable umpire's error, and the umpire should nullify the out."

This brings up something that I have a hard time figuring the logic on. I agree with the above interps, and how to handle an improper call. So my contention is with an appealed strike. MLBUM says, for example, R1, 3-1 count. Runner stealing on the pitch, batter checks his swing PU calls ball four, F2 throws down anyway and R1 is tagged. Now F2 appeals the check swing and U1 says strike. R1 is called out stealing. How is this different?

 

Because the rules specifically allow an in-play change on this type of call. MLBUM also says that everyone needs to be aware that a ball four can be changed to a strike. There's no disadvantage because everyone knows (or should know) that PU's call is not final.

 

Thanks. That makes sense. Followup question....Would the same apply to a R1 who just starts walking to 2nd after a check swing "ball 4"? Can F2 throw down to 1st, Have F3 tag R1 walking to 2nd then appeal the check swing? Or would that not be considered an "in-play change"?Seems we would have seen that more than a few times if it were legal. Maybe runners stay on 1st waiting for an appeal more than I have ever noticed? 

[Richvee]

Mr. Richvee, your exact play is also used in the BRD. It says that in both NCAA and OBR the runner is out.

 

The reason given is that unlike the play in the original post where an umpire is correcting his own mistake, in your play it is the runner who made a mistake. This reasoning matches up with what Mr. Matt just posted in response to your question.

Thanks. I knew the rule, and also that the runner is returned under FED. It's just that it almost seems contradictory that an appealed strike isn't defined as "umpire error". A case can be made that it is indeed a "reversed call"

[Senor Azul]

Mr. Richvee, the rule that supports the interpretations from the MLBUM and the BRD is the comment following 9.02c. The relevant part reads:

 

"Baserunners must be alert to the possibility that the base umpire on appeal from the plate umpire may reverse the call of a ball to the call of a strike, in which event the runner is in jeopardy of being out by the catcher's throw.... The ball is in play on appeal on a half swing."

[Richvee]

Mr. Richvee, the rule that supports the interpretations from the MLBUM and the BRD is the comment following 9.02c. The relevant part reads:

 

"Baserunners must be alert to the possibility that the base umpire on appeal from the plate umpire may reverse the call of a ball to the call of a strike, in which event the runner is in jeopardy of being out by the catcher's throw.... The ball is in play on appeal on a half swing."

Just to be clear, I didn't mean a case can be made to rule differently than the rulebook states. Just the semantics....ahhhh..forget it. I'm getting stupid here...

[Rich Ives]

Mr. Richvee, the rule that supports the interpretations from the MLBUM and the BRD is the comment following 9.02c. The relevant part reads:

 

"Baserunners must be alert to the possibility that the base umpire on appeal from the plate umpire may reverse the call of a ball to the call of a strike, in which event the runner is in jeopardy of being out by the catcher's throw.... The ball is in play on appeal on a half swing."

 

Added this year:  Appeals on a half swing must be made before the next pitch, or any play or attempted play. If the half swing occurs during a play which ends a half-inning, the appeal must be made before all infielders of the defensive team leave fair territory.