another base awards question

[Omega194]

runners on 1st & 3rd.   runner on 1st is stealing 2nd and right as he got to 2nd the pitcher balked.  

 

I am thinking if he got to 2nd before the balk infraction he is awarded 3rd?  or does he stay on 2nd?

 

this was a PONY - mustang game by the way.

[1dumbquestion]

If the R1 managed to get to 2nd, quiet as a mouse, before the F1 began his motion committing him to pitch or balk then yes he gets 3rd. Usually if there's a balk it happens well before R1 reaches as the D is yelling right away. 1

[ricka56]

You are on the right track, have some confidence in your rule knowedge. If F1 commited a pitching infraction after R1 became R2, what possible argument could there be for treating him as R1.

[JaxRolo]

If F1 started his motion before he got to 2nd. He stays there.

[maven]

R1 would have to be literally halfway to 3B before I awarded him 3B for a balk.

 

And, by "literally," I mean literally: at least 45 feet toward 3B. I can't imagine that actually happening at any level with balks.

 

Otherwise, I'm ruling that the balk occurred before the touch at 2B.

[ALStripes17]

R1 would have to be literally halfway to 3B before I awarded him 3B for a balk.

And, by "literally," I mean literally: at least 45 feet toward 3B. I can't imagine that actually happening at any level with balks.

Otherwise, I'm ruling that the balk occurred before the touch at 2B.

??? Halfway to 3B ???

History tells me you're exaggerating...

[Rich Ives]

R1 would have to be literally halfway to 3B before I awarded him 3B for a balk.

 

And, by "literally," I mean literally: at least 45 feet toward 3B. I can't imagine that actually happening at any level with balks.

 

Otherwise, I'm ruling that the balk occurred before the touch at 2B.

 

The R1 touch of 2B has to happen before TOP to move the runner to 3B.

[maven]

 

R1 would have to be literally halfway to 3B before I awarded him 3B for a balk.

 

And, by "literally," I mean literally: at least 45 feet toward 3B. I can't imagine that actually happening at any level with balks.

 

Otherwise, I'm ruling that the balk occurred before the touch at 2B.

 

The R1 touch of 2B has to happen before TOP to move the runner to 3B.

 

 

Exactly. And it didn't.

[ricka56]

 

 

R1 would have to be literally halfway to 3B before I awarded him 3B for a balk.

 

And, by "literally," I mean literally: at least 45 feet toward 3B. I can't imagine that actually happening at any level with balks.

 

Otherwise, I'm ruling that the balk occurred before the touch at 2B.

 

The R1 touch of 2B has to happen before TOP to move the runner to 3B.

 

Exactly. And it didn't.

 

Y'all are arguing facts not presented in the OP. In the OP there is no pitch (no TOP), only a TOB. PU can see/judge where the runner from 1B is when the balk occurred.  

 

I agree if its "iffy" don't give him the extra base, but if he's there, then he's there.

[Rich Ives]

 

 

 

R1 would have to be literally halfway to 3B before I awarded him 3B for a balk.

 

And, by "literally," I mean literally: at least 45 feet toward 3B. I can't imagine that actually happening at any level with balks.

 

Otherwise, I'm ruling that the balk occurred before the touch at 2B.

 

The R1 touch of 2B has to happen before TOP to move the runner to 3B.

 

Exactly. And it didn't.

 

Y'all are arguing facts not presented in the OP. In the OP there is no pitch (no TOP), only a TOB. PU can see/judge where the runner from 1B is when the balk occurred.  

 

I agree if its "iffy" don't give him the extra base, but if he's there, then he's there.

 

 

Not that simple. 

[ricka56]

 

 

 

 

R1 would have to be literally halfway to 3B before I awarded him 3B for a balk.

 

And, by "literally," I mean literally: at least 45 feet toward 3B. I can't imagine that actually happening at any level with balks.

 

Otherwise, I'm ruling that the balk occurred before the touch at 2B.

 

The R1 touch of 2B has to happen before TOP to move the runner to 3B.

 

Exactly. And it didn't.

 

Y'all are arguing facts not presented in the OP. In the OP there is no pitch (no TOP), only a TOB. PU can see/judge where the runner from 1B is when the balk occurred.  

 

I agree if its "iffy" don't give him the extra base, but if he's there, then he's there.

 

 

Not that simple. 

How could it be simplier, either he's at 2B when the balk occurred or he wasn't. If its a nut cutter call, I don't have a problem with the umpire giving the benefit of the doubt to the defense. But it is a simple yes/no decision. If its more complicated, then the umpire is playing fast and loose with the rules.

 

What if R1 made it to 2B before TOP (no balk) and the pitch was fouled off ? Would you send him back to 1B ? Is the balk (OP) sitch any different (wrt this runner's pre-balk/TOP status)?

[Rich Ives]

 

 

 

 

 

R1 would have to be literally halfway to 3B before I awarded him 3B for a balk.

 

And, by "literally," I mean literally: at least 45 feet toward 3B. I can't imagine that actually happening at any level with balks.

 

Otherwise, I'm ruling that the balk occurred before the touch at 2B.

 

The R1 touch of 2B has to happen before TOP to move the runner to 3B.

 

Exactly. And it didn't.

 

Y'all are arguing facts not presented in the OP. In the OP there is no pitch (no TOP), only a TOB. PU can see/judge where the runner from 1B is when the balk occurred.  

 

I agree if its "iffy" don't give him the extra base, but if he's there, then he's there.

 

 

Not that simple. 

How could it be simplier, either he's at 2B when the balk occurred or he wasn't. If its a nut cutter call, I don't have a problem with the umpire giving the benefit of the doubt to the defense. But it is a simple yes/no decision. If its more complicated, then the umpire is playing fast and loose with the rules.

 

What if R1 made it to 2B before TOP (no balk) and the pitch was fouled off ? Would you send him back to 1B ? Is the balk (OP) sitch any different (wrt this runner's pre-balk/TOP status)?

 

 

No.      

[Rich Ives]

 

 

 

 

 

R1 would have to be literally halfway to 3B before I awarded him 3B for a balk.

 

And, by "literally," I mean literally: at least 45 feet toward 3B. I can't imagine that actually happening at any level with balks.

 

Otherwise, I'm ruling that the balk occurred before the touch at 2B.

 

The R1 touch of 2B has to happen before TOP to move the runner to 3B.

 

Exactly. And it didn't.

 

Y'all are arguing facts not presented in the OP. In the OP there is no pitch (no TOP), only a TOB. PU can see/judge where the runner from 1B is when the balk occurred.  

 

I agree if its "iffy" don't give him the extra base, but if he's there, then he's there.

 

 

Not that simple. 

How could it be simplier, either he's at 2B when the balk occurred or he wasn't. If its a nut cutter call, I don't have a problem with the umpire giving the benefit of the doubt to the defense. But it is a simple yes/no decision. If its more complicated, then the umpire is playing fast and loose with the rules.

 

What if R1 made it to 2B before TOP (no balk) and the pitch was fouled off ? Would you send him back to 1B ? Is the balk (OP) sitch any different (wrt this runner's pre-balk/TOP status)?

 

 

Because getting there before TOB but after TOP means he isn't there yet.

 

R1 goes - pitcher, in a fog, delays then starts a pitch. Runner reaches base after he starts his motion. Then realizing the runner has gotten to 2B he aborts the pitch.  Voila! Balk. R1 is at the base at TOB but after TOP. Stays at 2B, doesn't get third because TOB doesn't mean anything. He was "on first" at TOP.

[ricka56]

 

 

 

 

 

 

R1 would have to be literally halfway to 3B before I awarded him 3B for a balk.

 

And, by "literally," I mean literally: at least 45 feet toward 3B. I can't imagine that actually happening at any level with balks.

 

Otherwise, I'm ruling that the balk occurred before the touch at 2B.

 

The R1 touch of 2B has to happen before TOP to move the runner to 3B.

 

Exactly. And it didn't.

 

Y'all are arguing facts not presented in the OP. In the OP there is no pitch (no TOP), only a TOB. PU can see/judge where the runner from 1B is when the balk occurred.  

 

I agree if its "iffy" don't give him the extra base, but if he's there, then he's there.

 

 

Not that simple. 

How could it be simplier, either he's at 2B when the balk occurred or he wasn't. If its a nut cutter call, I don't have a problem with the umpire giving the benefit of the doubt to the defense. But it is a simple yes/no decision. If its more complicated, then the umpire is playing fast and loose with the rules.

 

What if R1 made it to 2B before TOP (no balk) and the pitch was fouled off ? Would you send him back to 1B ? Is the balk (OP) sitch any different (wrt this runner's pre-balk/TOP status)?

 

Because getting there before TOB but after TOP means he isn't there yet.

 

R1 goes - pitcher, in a fog, delays then starts a pitch. Runner reaches base after he starts his motion. Then realizing the runner has gotten to 2B he aborts the pitch.  Voila! Balk. R1 is at the base at TOB but after TOP. Stays at 2B, doesn't get third because TOB doesn't mean anything. He was "on first" at TOP.

 

That would be true if there was a TOP...the OP doesn't have one. Why are you inserting one ?

[Rich Ives]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

R1 would have to be literally halfway to 3B before I awarded him 3B for a balk.

 

And, by "literally," I mean literally: at least 45 feet toward 3B. I can't imagine that actually happening at any level with balks.

 

Otherwise, I'm ruling that the balk occurred before the touch at 2B.

 

The R1 touch of 2B has to happen before TOP to move the runner to 3B.

 

Exactly. And it didn't.

 

Y'all are arguing facts not presented in the OP. In the OP there is no pitch (no TOP), only a TOB. PU can see/judge where the runner from 1B is when the balk occurred.  

 

I agree if its "iffy" don't give him the extra base, but if he's there, then he's there.

 

 

Not that simple. 

How could it be simplier, either he's at 2B when the balk occurred or he wasn't. If its a nut cutter call, I don't have a problem with the umpire giving the benefit of the doubt to the defense. But it is a simple yes/no decision. If its more complicated, then the umpire is playing fast and loose with the rules.

 

What if R1 made it to 2B before TOP (no balk) and the pitch was fouled off ? Would you send him back to 1B ? Is the balk (OP) sitch any different (wrt this runner's pre-balk/TOP status)?

 

Because getting there before TOB but after TOP means he isn't there yet.

 

R1 goes - pitcher, in a fog, delays then starts a pitch. Runner reaches base after he starts his motion. Then realizing the runner has gotten to 2B he aborts the pitch.  Voila! Balk. R1 is at the base at TOB but after TOP. Stays at 2B, doesn't get third because TOB doesn't mean anything. He was "on first" at TOP.

 

That would be true if there was a TOP...the OP doesn't have one. Why are you inserting one ?

 

 

 

Because you said the only thing that matters is TOB and that's not a true statement.  We don't know if there was a TOP in the OP or not, and in any event, it matters.

[Jayumpref19]

2.28.3 SITUATION A:

R1 is on third and R2 on first with no outs. F1 contacts the pitcher's plate and assumes the set position stance. As he begins his stretch, R2 advances toward second base attempting to steal. F1 realizes R2 is stealing but he does not throw to second, fearing that R1 will break for home and score. F1 completes his stretch, coming to a pause with the ball in both hands in front of his body. R2 reaches second and rounds it, after which F1 delivers the ball to B3, who fouls a pitch into the stands.

RULING: R2 is allowed to remain on second because he was there prior to the time of the pitch. The definition of "time of the pitch" determines the base to which R1 is entitled

Thanks,

Jay

Umpref19

[Jayumpref19]

Under 2.28.3 FED rules if R2 stole second before the pitch and the pitch was fouled off R2 would get second. So if F1 balk while R2 was on second I believe he should get 3rd

Thanks,

Jay

Umpref19

[Replacematt]

Under 2.28.3 FED rules if R2 stole second before the pitch and the pitch was fouled off R2 would get second. So if F1 balk while R2 was on second I believe he should get 3rd

Thanks,

Jay

Umpref19

That would be the case if TOP hadn't occurred yet.

Let me break it down. If there's no commitment to pitch, then the balk is enforced from where the runners are when it happened. If there is a commitment to pitch, the balk is enforced from where the runners are at the time the pitcher commits to pitch.

To put it another way: either the balk or commitment can occur first, but the TOP is the primary time of enforcement, and the TOB is only the time of enforcement if there is no TOP.

[Jocko]

The question we really need answered is, what was the balk? Start/stop most likely gives us a TOP, but not necessarily. He may have disengaged improperly, which would not give us a TOP. Many variables and not much information. However, EVERYTHING concerning the base award boils down to TOP. There is no such thing a TOB (time of balk).