Balk - What's the correct call

[NoCal Blue]

Had a situation tonight that for some reason am unable to clarify clearly in my mind. 

 

Rule Set: OBR Modified.

Age Group: 14-16

 

R3, 1 out. Pitcher from the set, deliverers the pitch. Partner calls "balk".  B/R hits a dinger to F6 who fields it then stands there with it in his glove. At this point everything slooooows down. B/R starts running to 1st but stops about half way. R3 starts coming home at a slow jog.

 

Coaches were yelling that the ball is dead which I think confused the players. Some one in the stands screams "ball is still live" and the fun begins.

 

R3 about a third of the way home takes off. F6 looks then throws to F3 beating the B/R who had stopped.

 

DC calls time and starts in on my partner that the ball was dead and the run shouldn't count. I know...I couldn't believe it either. 

 

My partner gives this long explanation about the balk rule stating that the offensive team manager has a choice to either take the run and have the B/R back in the box or decline the run and put runners on first and third.....and here is where I'm trying to gain some clarity. He took forever trying to explain it to the coach that he had me confused

 

Can someone let me know the specific rule and/or subsection that addresses the issue. It wasn't my call so I stayed out of it but I couldn't find the coaches "choice" that my partner was referring to. 

[grayhawk]

There is NO CHOICE for the coach in this situation.  Either you enforce the balk, or you disregard it.  The ONLY way it can be disregarded is if all runners, including the batter-runner, advance at least one base.

 

Since the batter-runner was put out, enforce the balk, score R3 and bring the batter back to bat with the same count he had before the balk.

 

8.05 Penalty: The ball is dead, and each runner shall advance one base without liability to be put out, unless the batter reaches first on a hit, an error, a base on balls, a hit batter, or otherwise, and all other runners advance at least one base, in which case the play proceeds without reference to the balk.

[JaxRolo]

No choice. Enforce the balk. Award R3 home and BR back to the plate with same count.

[NoCal Blue]

Grayhawk / JaxRolo...

 

Thanks...this is my understanding as well and exactly how we handled it. Not sure where my partner got the "coaches choice" part of his explanation from. Couldn't stop thinking about though. I must have read 8.05 a dozen times last night trying to see if there was some reference to it. 

[JaxRolo]

This is a common misunderstanding that affects several umpires.

[grayhawk]

They confuse the catcher's interference penalty with a balk because both are delayed dead and both can be disregarded when all runners including the batter-runner advance at least one base.

[Larry in TN]

All of the umpires in our LL (Intermediate and Junior divisions) kill it immediately when they call balk.  They've trained everyone to think that a balk is an immediate dead ball.  I've asked several of the umpires I know well about this and they don't have a good answer.  One told me, "I just like to kill it".  ????????

 

Of course he's the same guy who signals the location of all of his "Ball" calls with his right hand.  Have to listen closely to know if it was a strike or ball!

[guyinaredhat]

as soon as you realize that all runners can't/wont advance 1 base then call time.  

[NoCal Blue]

They confuse the catcher's interference penalty with a balk because both are delayed dead and both can be disregarded when all runners including the batter-runner advance at least one base.

Ah ha............that's where I am remembering the the reference from. Think I've only called CI three times in the last several years. Finally have the gray matter between my ears realigned. 

 

Thanks Again.

[Jocko]

This is a common misunderstanding that affects several "umpires".

Added correct punctuation

[MooseLoop]

I think there are only three coach-option situations: catcher's obstruction/interference, illegal substitute, and illegal bat.  Anyone got any others?

[noumpere]

I think there are only three coach-option situations: catcher's obstruction/interference, illegal substitute, and illegal bat.  Anyone got any others?

What rules set?

 

The OP was "OBR modified."  I don't know what the mods were, but ONR does not have a choice on illegal substitute or illegal bat.  OBR has it on "pitching a defaced ball".

 

And, in FED, illegal glove is also a choice.

 

In all codes, some would say BOO is a choice because the manager / coach can make it known.  Once it's known, however, the penalty is applied.

[zm1283]

Had a situation tonight that for some reason am unable to clarify clearly in my mind. 

 

Rule Set: OBR Modified.

Age Group: 14-16

 

R3, 1 out. Pitcher from the set, deliverers the pitch. Partner calls "balk".  B/R hits a dinger to F6 who fields it then stands there with it in his glove. At this point everything slooooows down. B/R starts running to 1st but stops about half way. R3 starts coming home at a slow jog.

 

Coaches were yelling that the ball is dead which I think confused the players. Some one in the stands screams "ball is still live" and the fun begins.

 

R3 about a third of the way home takes off. F6 looks then throws to F3 beating the B/R who had stopped.

 

DC calls time and starts in on my partner that the ball was dead and the run shouldn't count. I know...I couldn't believe it either. 

 

My partner gives this long explanation about the balk rule stating that the offensive team manager has a choice to either take the run and have the B/R back in the box or decline the run and put runners on first and third.....and here is where I'm trying to gain some clarity. He took forever trying to explain it to the coach that he had me confused

 

Can someone let me know the specific rule and/or subsection that addresses the issue. It wasn't my call so I stayed out of it but I couldn't find the coaches "choice" that my partner was referring to. 

 

You couldn't believe that coaches at that level don't know the rules? I sure can. 

 

 

as soon as you realize that all runners can't/wont advance 1 base then call time.  

 

Or if the pitcher balks on a pickoff, as soon as an infielder is holding the ball. 

[ALStripes17]

Had a situation tonight that for some reason am unable to clarify clearly in my mind.

Rule Set: OBR Modified.

Age Group: 14-16

R3, 1 out. Pitcher from the set, deliverers the pitch. Partner calls "balk". B/R hits a dinger to F6 who fields it then stands there with it in his glove. At this point everything slooooows down. B/R starts running to 1st but stops about half way. R3 starts coming home at a slow jog.

Coaches were yelling that the ball is dead which I think confused the players. Some one in the stands screams "ball is still live" and the fun begins.

R3 about a third of the way home takes off. F6 looks then throws to F3 beating the B/R who had stopped.

DC calls time and starts in on my partner that the ball was dead and the run shouldn't count. I know...I couldn't believe it either.

My partner gives this long explanation about the balk rule stating that the offensive team manager has a choice to either take the run and have the B/R back in the box or decline the run and put runners on first and third.....and here is where I'm trying to gain some clarity. He took forever trying to explain it to the coach that he had me confused

Can someone let me know the specific rule and/or subsection that addresses the issue. It wasn't my call so I stayed out of it but I couldn't find the coaches "choice" that my partner was referring to.

You couldn't believe that coaches at that level don't know the rules? I sure can.

as soon as you realize that all runners can't/wont advance 1 base then call time.

Or if the pitcher balks on a pickoff, as soon as an infielder is holding the ball.

So the infielder doesn't even have to get it back in after retrieving a miss throw into the OF? I think we should stick to "when play relaxes."

[zm1283]

So the infielder doesn't even have to get it back in after retrieving a miss throw into the OF? I think we should stick to "when play relaxes."

 

 

Maybe I should have put it "When an infielder is holding the ball on the infield". Lets say a LHP is called for a no-step balk to first. As soon as F3 catches it, kill it and award bases. If it's a bad throw that goes into right field past F3, let it play out.

[ALStripes17]

So the infielder doesn't even have to get it back in after retrieving a miss throw into the OF? I think we should stick to "when play relaxes."

Maybe I should have put it "When an infielder is holding the ball on the infield". Lets say a LHP is called for a no-step balk to first. As soon as F3 catches it, kill it and award bases. If it's a bad throw that goes into right field past F3, let it play out.

Si, I knew what you meant. Was in the mood to give someone a hard time. I shall retreat to my cave

[noumpere]

 

 

Or if the pitcher balks on a pickoff, as soon as an infielder is holding the ball.

 

So the infielder doesn't even have to get it back in after retrieving a miss throw into the OF? I think we should stick to "when play relaxes."

 

If the throw from F1 is caught, then kill it right then.

 

if the throw is wild, let all play continue.

[Dash Riprock]

When the ball stays live after a balk, the D is not permitted to attempt to put out a runner before he reaches his award base.  The ball becomes dead.

[SoCal Lurker]

When the ball stays live after a balk, the D is not permitted to attempt to put out a runner before he reaches his award base.  The ball becomes dead.

 

For sure?  R1 and R2.  Balk on pick-off throw at first gets away.  R2 is turning the corner at 3B and RF is throwing to 2B in an attempt to put out R1.  Why would you kill it?  R2 may score on the play, and the attempt on R2 doesn't mean he's going to be out -- maybe that ball gets away, too, and he ends up at third.

[maven]

 

When the ball stays live after a balk, the D is not permitted to attempt to put out a runner before he reaches his award base.  The ball becomes dead.

 

For sure?  R1 and R2.  Balk on pick-off throw at first gets away.  R2 is turning the corner at 3B and RF is throwing to 2B in an attempt to put out R1.  Why would you kill it?  R2 may score on the play, and the attempt on R2 doesn't mean he's going to be out -- maybe that ball gets away, too, and he ends up at third.

 

 

If R1 gets in a rundown in your play, we'll let it play out. If R2 is thrown out at the plate and R1 gets to 2B safely, the balk is ignored. If R1 is put out at 2B, R2 will be sent back to 3B for the balk penalty.

 

I don't think Dash intended to deny any of that.

[SoCal Lurker]

 

 

When the ball stays live after a balk, the D is not permitted to attempt to put out a runner before he reaches his award base.  The ball becomes dead.

 

For sure?  R1 and R2.  Balk on pick-off throw at first gets away.  R2 is turning the corner at 3B and RF is throwing to 2B in an attempt to put out R1.  Why would you kill it?  R2 may score on the play, and the attempt on R2 doesn't mean he's going to be out -- maybe that ball gets away, too, and he ends up at third.

 

 

If R1 gets in a rundown in your play, we'll let it play out. If R2 is thrown out at the plate and R1 gets to 2B safely, the balk is ignored. If R1 is put out at 2B, R2 will be sent back to 3B for the balk penalty.

 

I don't think Dash intended to deny any of that.

 

 

I suspect he didn't think he did either -- but he said they aren't permitted to "attempt" to get someone out before the award based and to kill it if they did.  The point I was trying to make was that killing it merely because they are "attempting" to make a play on a runner could be prematureas that attempt doesn't necessarily mean tha the criteria for ignoring the balk will not be met.