dropped third strike and getting help

[Mike Prince]

I never give a verbal "no catch" on a dropped 3rd strike. I indicate it with a safe signal. I've worked with guys who give a half safe signal (just using one arm).

The problem with your mechanic is that the 2 people who most need the information you're providing cannot see you. The verbal is crucial to the BR and F2.

Hopefully someone in the dugout is paying attention because "no catch & catch" can sound a lot alike in the excitement of the moment. That's why we don't say "fair" when there's a ball down the line, it can be heard as foul, we just point fair.

Maybe to the rest of the park, but not for F2 and the B/R, the verbal is only for them. The visual is to keep the rest of the idiots happy.

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[SteveJ]

 

 

 

I never give a verbal "no catch" on a dropped 3rd strike. I indicate it with a safe signal. I've worked with guys who give a half safe signal (just using one arm).

The problem with your mechanic is that the 2 people who most need the information you're providing cannot see you. The verbal is crucial to the BR and F2.

 

Hopefully someone in the dugout is paying attention because "no catch & catch" can sound a lot alike in the excitement of the moment. That's why we don't say "fair" when there's a ball down the line, it can be heard as foul, we just point fair.

 

Maybe to the rest of the park, but not for F2 and the B/R, the verbal is only for them. The visual is to keep the rest of the idiots happy.

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Actually it can be confusing to them as well, I have seen it in lower level games that I have observed.  I guess it's a personal choice to use a verbal/hand signal versus just the hand signal.  I'm not aware of it being taught to do just one or the other.  I'll remain in the non-verbal camp....at least for now.

[maven]

Actually it can be confusing to them as well, I have seen it in lower level games that I have observed.  I guess it's a personal choice to use a verbal/hand signal versus just the hand signal.  I'm not aware of it being taught to do just one or the other.  I'll remain in the non-verbal camp....at least for now.

Sure it's a personal choice. But pro instruction and instruction at reputable clinics is to verbalize "No catch!" and signal safe.

 

I hope you make the right choice.

[Mike Prince]

I never give a verbal "no catch" on a dropped 3rd strike. I indicate it with a safe signal. I've worked with guys who give a half safe signal (just using one arm).

The problem with your mechanic is that the 2 people who most need the information you're providing cannot see you. The verbal is crucial to the BR and F2.

Hopefully someone in the dugout is paying attention because "no catch & catch" can sound a lot alike in the excitement of the moment. That's why we don't say "fair" when there's a ball down the line, it can be heard as foul, we just point fair.

Maybe to the rest of the park, but not for F2 and the B/R, the verbal is only for them. The visual is to keep the rest of the idiots happy.

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Actually it can be confusing to them as well, I have seen it in lower level games that I have observed. I guess it's a personal choice to use a verbal/hand signal versus just the hand signal. I'm not aware of it being taught to do just one or the other. I'll remain in the non-verbal camp....at least for now.

Sure, not overtly disagreeing, just offering my view to the discussion. IMO the 80/20 rule applies here - no verbal or a verbal is fine 80% of the time (no one cares), it's the other 20% where you may get flak for not doing something and I guess this could apply to either approach.

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[grayhawk]

Agreed here.

I usually say "He's got it! He's got it!" (Swinging strike three mechanic)

Or...

"Gotta get him! Gotta get him!" (Pointing with the right arm fully extended).

I think "No Catch" is more clear. What's the merit behind "Gotta get him!"?

"Gotta get him!" Means exactly that. The catcher either needs to tag him, or throw him out.

The main thing is to give the visual mechanic so everyone can see. If the batter or catcher are clueless with your mechanic, or unaware of the count, that's their issue.

Similar to the infield fly (mechanic and verbal for the runners), giving a verbal on the dropped third strike is providing a curtisey to the defensive team of what needs to be done to retire the BR.

"Gotta get him" sounds like you are rooting for them to get the out. It's also something almost no other umpire says, so it could be confusing. "No catch" is more professional and neutral. JMHO.

[Jocko]

A player may not but the offensive coach could. Again, not the standard verbal but if it works for you it's better than saying nothing at all.

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The standard verbal is actually no verbal. But when you tell the catcher "you gotta get him!" Or a similar phrase, you're simply telling him that he has to retire the batter due to the fact he didn't catch the baseball.please do this in a game in which you're being evaluated. Then, when you hear from someone you MUST listen to when he says DON'T DO THAT, you'll actually listen and learn.

Maybe

[th3]

Agreed here.

I usually say "He's got it! He's got it!" (Swinging strike three mechanic)

Or...

"Gotta get him! Gotta get him!" (Pointing with the right arm fully extended).

I think "No Catch" is more clear. What's the merit behind "Gotta get him!"?

Agreed here.

I usually say "He's got it! He's got it!" (Swinging strike three mechanic)

Or...

"Gotta get him! Gotta get him!" (Pointing with the right arm fully extended).

I think "No Catch" is more clear. What's the merit behind "Gotta get him!"?

I never give a verbal "no catch" on a dropped 3rd strike. I indicate it with a safe signal. I've worked with guys who give a half safe signal (just using one arm). I was at the yankee game the other day and gerry davis was using one arm

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[maineump]

Our board uses the base ump as a 'second source' only. I don't ask him, I look for his subtle signal - pointing to the ground on a no-catch, and a fist for a catch - if I have any doubt.

As far as verbal - if it is caught I say OUT, if no catch then I say ' no catch' and signal safe.

 

Generally the catcher knows what happened, it is for the batter generally. It seems easier as the level of play goes up, as the players know the game better. The verbal stuff if for the catcher/batter the safe is for my partner. If the coach feels like screaming then he is arguing balls & strikes.

 

Good timing is important for these calls, so take a second as a plate guy and look.

[noumpere]

Generally the catcher knows what happened,

 

Sure, the catcher knows what happened.  But, he doesn't know that you know what happened.  The verbal is for him, too.

 

And to whoever says "gotta get him" -- why aren't you saying "gotta run to first"?  Your phrase is directed to the defense -- use a phrase that's neutral or directed to both.  If only we had one that worked like that ...

[maven]

Our board uses the base ump as a 'second source' only. I don't ask him, I look for his subtle signal - [sNIP]

 

No such thing. If you can see it, so can coach (just ask Rich Ives), and he might well ask why that guy out there is making this call (which belongs to PU).

 

I'm not a fan of secret/subtle/whatever signals, which for me can promote lazy umpiring and not getting your own calls.

[zm1283]

You should verbalize on this, and it should be "No catch" while giving the safe signal.

[maineump]

I agree on the subtle signal can be seen by all - like I said, I only use his 'help' when blocked.

 

It was made subtle, because we have had instances where the plate guy makes 1 call and the base guy another - I hate that.

 

Timing - Timing - Timing!

[Pete Peterson Sr]

 

A player may not but the offensive coach could. Again, not the standard verbal but if it works for you it's better than saying nothing at all.

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The standard verbal is actually no verbal. But when you tell the catcher "you gotta get him!" Or a similar phrase, you're simply telling him that he has to retire the batter due to the fact he didn't catch the baseball.

 

 

"No catch" is informative to both players involved. It tells both the batter AND the catcher that you did not see a clean catch. 

[Jocko]

Our board uses the base ump as a 'second source' only. I don't ask him, I look for his subtle signal - [sNIP]

No such thing. If you can see it, so can coach (just ask Rich Ives), and he might well ask why that guy out there is making this call (which belongs to PU).

I'm not a fan of secret/subtle/whatever signals, which for me can promote lazy umpiring and not getting your own calls.I understand what you're saying, but I will agree to disagree. So what if Rainman saw you give me what you had. It's my call. Just because you saw it differently, and a rat knows it means nothing. You're not making a call. Youre sharing information. Its no secret. Most of the time I dont need it and dont bother to look for it. But there are times when it has been a key piece of information.

[SoCal Lurker]

 

 

Our board uses the base ump as a 'second source' only. I don't ask him, I look for his subtle signal - [sNIP]

No such thing. If you can see it, so can coach (just ask Rich Ives), and he might well ask why that guy out there is making this call (which belongs to PU).

I'm not a fan of secret/subtle/whatever signals, which for me can promote lazy umpiring and not getting your own calls. I understand what you're saying, but I will agree to disagree. So what if Rainman saw you give me what you had. It's my call. Just because you saw it differently, and a rat knows it means nothing. You're not making a call. Youre sharing information. Its no secret. Most of the time I dont need it and dont bother to look for it. But there are times when it has been a key piece of information.

 

 

My two cents on subtle signals (as many know, I don't ump, but I ref soccer, so take with a grain of salt):  There are a couple of reasons for subtle signals.  One is to avoid distraction of prticipants.  Another is, well, not to be as visible to everyone.  Sublte siganls are most subtle when the hoi poloi aren't looking at the person making the signal -- which is pretty likely on a UC3K.  Of course, some coaches will notice these subtle signals -- but those are typically going to be more knowledgable ones who will actually understand a brief explanation, not the ones who scream and yell about stupid stuff they don't understand.

[zm1283]

 

 

 

Our board uses the base ump as a 'second source' only. I don't ask him, I look for his subtle signal - [sNIP]

No such thing. If you can see it, so can coach (just ask Rich Ives), and he might well ask why that guy out there is making this call (which belongs to PU).

I'm not a fan of secret/subtle/whatever signals, which for me can promote lazy umpiring and not getting your own calls. I understand what you're saying, but I will agree to disagree. So what if Rainman saw you give me what you had. It's my call. Just because you saw it differently, and a rat knows it means nothing. You're not making a call. Youre sharing information. Its no secret. Most of the time I dont need it and dont bother to look for it. But there are times when it has been a key piece of information.

 

 

My two cents on subtle signals (as many know, I don't ump, but I ref soccer, so take with a grain of salt):  There are a couple of reasons for subtle signals.  One is to avoid distraction of prticipants.  Another is, well, not to be as visible to everyone.  Sublte siganls are most subtle when the hoi poloi aren't looking at the person making the signal -- which is pretty likely on a UC3K.  Of course, some coaches will notice these subtle signals -- but those are typically going to be more knowledgable ones who will actually understand a brief explanation, not the ones who scream and yell about stupid stuff they don't understand.

 

 

There is no reason to be subtle on an uncaught third strike. If you have a clean catch as the BU, just give a fist so the PU can see it and go on with things. 

[ALStripes17]

Our board uses the base ump as a 'second source' only. I don't ask him, I look for his subtle signal - [sNIP]

No such thing. If you can see it, so can coach (just ask Rich Ives), and he might well ask why that guy out there is making this call (which belongs to PU).

I'm not a fan of secret/subtle/whatever signals, which for me can promote lazy umpiring and not getting your own calls.

I understand what you're saying, but I will agree to disagree. So what if Rainman saw you give me what you had. It's my call. Just because you saw it differently, and a rat knows it means nothing. You're not making a call. Youre sharing information. Its no secret. Most of the time I dont need it and dont bother to look for it. But there are times when it has been a key piece of information.

My two cents on subtle signals (as many know, I don't ump, but I ref soccer, so take with a grain of salt): There are a couple of reasons for subtle signals. One is to avoid distraction of prticipants. Another is, well, not to be as visible to everyone. Sublte siganls are most subtle when the hoi poloi aren't looking at the person making the signal -- which is pretty likely on a UC3K. Of course, some coaches will notice these subtle signals -- but those are typically going to be more knowledgable ones who will actually understand a brief explanation, not the ones who scream and yell about stupid stuff they don't understand.

There is no reason to be subtle on an uncaught third strike. If you have a clean catch as the BU, just give a fist so the PU can see it and go on with things.

Im in the subtle camp here. I want to be helpful but don't want to draw attention. So if I come up with fists up claiming clean catch and my partner emphatically signals 'no catch,' then what would you do?

Subtlety is important in this case for game management

[zm1283]

 

 

 

 

 

Our board uses the base ump as a 'second source' only. I don't ask him, I look for his subtle signal - [sNIP]

No such thing. If you can see it, so can coach (just ask Rich Ives), and he might well ask why that guy out there is making this call (which belongs to PU).

I'm not a fan of secret/subtle/whatever signals, which for me can promote lazy umpiring and not getting your own calls.

 

I understand what you're saying, but I will agree to disagree. So what if Rainman saw you give me what you had. It's my call. Just because you saw it differently, and a rat knows it means nothing. You're not making a call. Youre sharing information. Its no secret. Most of the time I dont need it and dont bother to look for it. But there are times when it has been a key piece of information.

 

My two cents on subtle signals (as many know, I don't ump, but I ref soccer, so take with a grain of salt): There are a couple of reasons for subtle signals. One is to avoid distraction of prticipants. Another is, well, not to be as visible to everyone. Sublte siganls are most subtle when the hoi poloi aren't looking at the person making the signal -- which is pretty likely on a UC3K. Of course, some coaches will notice these subtle signals -- but those are typically going to be more knowledgable ones who will actually understand a brief explanation, not the ones who scream and yell about stupid stuff they don't understand.

 

There is no reason to be subtle on an uncaught third strike. If you have a clean catch as the BU, just give a fist so the PU can see it and go on with things.

 

Im in the subtle camp here. I want to be helpful but don't want to draw attention. So if I come up with fists up claiming clean catch and my partner emphatically signals 'no catch,' then what would you do?

Subtlety is important in this case for game management

 

 

Put my hand down and call the B/R out or safe at first. The same thing can happen when you're being subtle (Contradicting calls), so you might as well make sure the PU can see you.

[ALStripes17]

Our board uses the base ump as a 'second source' only. I don't ask him, I look for his subtle signal - [sNIP]

No such thing. If you can see it, so can coach (just ask Rich Ives), and he might well ask why that guy out there is making this call (which belongs to PU).

I'm not a fan of secret/subtle/whatever signals, which for me can promote lazy umpiring and not getting your own calls.

I understand what you're saying, but I will agree to disagree. So what if Rainman saw you give me what you had. It's my call. Just because you saw it differently, and a rat knows it means nothing. You're not making a call. Youre sharing information. Its no secret. Most of the time I dont need it and dont bother to look for it. But there are times when it has been a key piece of information.

My two cents on subtle signals (as many know, I don't ump, but I ref soccer, so take with a grain of salt): There are a couple of reasons for subtle signals. One is to avoid distraction of prticipants. Another is, well, not to be as visible to everyone. Sublte siganls are most subtle when the hoi poloi aren't looking at the person making the signal -- which is pretty likely on a UC3K. Of course, some coaches will notice these subtle signals -- but those are typically going to be more knowledgable ones who will actually understand a brief explanation, not the ones who scream and yell about stupid stuff they don't understand.

There is no reason to be subtle on an uncaught third strike. If you have a clean catch as the BU, just give a fist so the PU can see it and go on with things.

Im in the subtle camp here. I want to be helpful but don't want to draw attention. So if I come up with fists up claiming clean catch and my partner emphatically signals 'no catch,' then what would you do?

Subtlety is important in this case for game management

Put my hand down and call the B/R out or safe at first. The same thing can happen when you're being subtle (Contradicting calls), so you might as well make sure the PU can see you.

Subtlety allows you to get out of contradiction. (I.e. "no coach, that was not any type of signal"). Pregame with my partner gives them their guidance. No reason to draw attention on something that happens so quickly.

[zm1283]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Our board uses the base ump as a 'second source' only. I don't ask him, I look for his subtle signal - [sNIP]

No such thing. If you can see it, so can coach (just ask Rich Ives), and he might well ask why that guy out there is making this call (which belongs to PU).

I'm not a fan of secret/subtle/whatever signals, which for me can promote lazy umpiring and not getting your own calls.

 

I understand what you're saying, but I will agree to disagree. So what if Rainman saw you give me what you had. It's my call. Just because you saw it differently, and a rat knows it means nothing. You're not making a call. Youre sharing information. Its no secret. Most of the time I dont need it and dont bother to look for it. But there are times when it has been a key piece of information.

 

My two cents on subtle signals (as many know, I don't ump, but I ref soccer, so take with a grain of salt): There are a couple of reasons for subtle signals. One is to avoid distraction of prticipants. Another is, well, not to be as visible to everyone. Sublte siganls are most subtle when the hoi poloi aren't looking at the person making the signal -- which is pretty likely on a UC3K. Of course, some coaches will notice these subtle signals -- but those are typically going to be more knowledgable ones who will actually understand a brief explanation, not the ones who scream and yell about stupid stuff they don't understand.

 

There is no reason to be subtle on an uncaught third strike. If you have a clean catch as the BU, just give a fist so the PU can see it and go on with things.

 

Im in the subtle camp here. I want to be helpful but don't want to draw attention. So if I come up with fists up claiming clean catch and my partner emphatically signals 'no catch,' then what would you do?

Subtlety is important in this case for game management

 

Put my hand down and call the B/R out or safe at first. The same thing can happen when you're being subtle (Contradicting calls), so you might as well make sure the PU can see you.

 

Subtlety allows you to get out of contradiction. (I.e. "no coach, that was not any type of signal"). Pregame with my partner gives them their guidance. No reason to draw attention on something that happens so quickly.

 

 

If they actually see you give the signal (And most don't because they're watching the mess unfold at the plate) just tell them it's the PU's call and you are just offering information. 

[stl_ump]

Speaking of uncaught 3rd strike...

I've got a catcher who makes a clean catch but as he comes out of his squat, the ball falls out of his glove.  Uncaught 3rd strike?  I know there's no time limit but how long do I "wait" to declare it IS a catch and the batter is out?

Thanks

 

[Dash Riprock]

Speaking of uncaught 3rd strike...

I've got a catcher who makes a clean catch but as he comes out of his squat, the ball falls out of his glove.  Uncaught 3rd strike?  I know there's no time limit but how long do I "wait" to declare it IS a catch and the batter is out?

Thanks

It is a catch when F2 demonstrates (to you) secure possession of the baseball.

[MidAmUmp]

Don't be subtle...subtle/hidden mechanics leads to miscommunication.

 

For instance I used to have a partner tell me he'd either have a closed fist for a catch or would point down with 1 finger if it was not caught.  You know how hard it is to see 1 finger on a poorly lit field???

 

I use a standard out/safe mechanic.  I only do it if I'm 100% sure of what I saw.  If I'm not sure I just stand there and look stupid.

 

I would bet the main reason behind these subtle/hidden mechanics was more because the base umpire had his head up his ass, talking with a base coach, not paying attention, didn't know the count, and couldn't tell you if he caught the ball or not, so I'm going to be as subtle as humanly possible so no one thinks I'm a fool.

[Pete Peterson Sr]

Don't be subtle...subtle/hidden mechanics leads to miscommunication.

 

For instance I used to have a partner tell me he'd either have a closed fist for a catch or would point down with 1 finger if it was not caught.  You know how hard it is to see 1 finger on a poorly lit field???

 

I use a standard out/safe mechanic.  I only do it if I'm 100% sure of what I saw.  If I'm not sure I just stand there and look stupid.

 

I would bet the main reason behind these subtle/hidden mechanics was more because the base umpire had his head up his ass, talking with a base coach, not paying attention, didn't know the count, and couldn't tell you if he caught the ball or not, so I'm going to be as subtle as humanly possible so no one thinks I'm a fool.

 

 

I've got that mechanic down pat !