Collision at HP and other zaney 12u adventures

[RingEmUp]

12u game last night and I'm working the game by myself.  R1 is at 2nd base when the ball is hit over the F6s head.  F8 relays to F6 and F6 make a nice throw to home but it does bring the catcher up the 3rd base line a couple of feet, he's just outside the batters box.  R1 is cruising home and is unsure of what to do and collides with the catcher.  Catchers holds onto the ball and makes the tag, OUT!  I don't think this was an intentional running over the catcher situation otherwise I think an EJ would have been warranted.  I had to explain to the coaches what could have been done and that R1 has 3 feet to either side of his base path to go around.  I'm not going to call a kid out for trying to avoid a collision. 

 

Same game and the HT has a kid that has injured his foot but the kid really wants to hit.  He ends up drawing a walk and HT uses a pinch runner.  Here is where it got a little weird and I was unsure what to do.  The HT batted all 14 of their players and just rotated them in the field.  This meant there were no actual subs to use as a pinch runner.  I went with the coaches solution which was to use the previous batter since he struck out and it wouldn't create an even crazier scenario later on. 

 

The game wasn't too bad but I wasn't happy with my stike zone.  I missed a strike 3 on a curve ball that I hadn't seen the kid throw before.  He had been throwing fastballs and a knuckleballs mostly.  The curve was just nasty, looked like it was going to be high and away and SNAP, broke beautifilly and I froze.  Normally I don't care except that he hit the batter on the next pitch and that started a run fest that may have cost the HT a chance to win.  I'll still sleep at night. 

[JaxRolo]

Just make sure your timing is good and you will get them curve balls.

[scrounge]

A 12 yr old has no business throwing a curve IMO but that's not my issue as an umpire. If all you did wrong was miss an unexpected curve that might have crossed the plate high anyway, you had a great night (there is no such thing as 'late break' anyway, that's just a perception - unless someone attached rocket boosters to impart a force at the end of a pitch). The meltdown was coming, whether you called that a strike or not.

[RingEmUp]

A 12 yr old has no business throwing a curve IMO but that's not my issue as an umpire. If all you did wrong was miss an unexpected curve that might have crossed the plate high anyway, you had a great night (there is no such thing as 'late break' anyway, that's just a perception - unless someone attached rocket boosters to impart a force at the end of a pitch). The meltdown was coming, whether you called that a strike or not.

 

I forgot to clarify, that would have been the 3rd out.  I also agree that kids that young should not be throwing a curve. 

[SoCal Lurker]

 

A 12 yr old has no business throwing a curve IMO but that's not my issue as an umpire. If all you did wrong was miss an unexpected curve that might have crossed the plate high anyway, you had a great night (there is no such thing as 'late break' anyway, that's just a perception - unless someone attached rocket boosters to impart a force at the end of a pitch). The meltdown was coming, whether you called that a strike or not.

 

I forgot to clarify, that would have been the 3rd out.  I also agree that kids that young should not be throwing a curve. 

 

 

Whether that is true now seems subject to debate.  (I spent some time looking at this a year or two ago for my kid.)  While there were some studies that suggested curves were bad for the arm, recent studies suggest that those studies failed to account for pitches thrown -- and it was the kids who were throwing a lot who were also the ones throwing curves.  These more recent studies suggest that that it is overuse, not throwing curves that is an issue.  There was also a study that looked at arm stress and suggeted that a properly thrown curve ball put less stress on the arm than a fastball.  American Pediatrics Assocation, last time I looked, recognized the ambiguity in the data, and recommended puberty (which they descibed as when shaving begins) as the startnig point for curves. 

 

Based on the data I could find, I let my kid start learning (but not throw very much) a curve at 12 with a pitching coach that I really trusted to teach him proper mechanics.  I foucssed more on preventing overuse and ensuring appropriate rest for the arm (both during season and a significant off season with absolutely no pitching).  (But anyone looking out for their kid should not rely on my memory, but should go out and look at the data, includng the APA recommendation.)

[Pete Peterson Sr]

 

 

A 12 yr old has no business throwing a curve IMO but that's not my issue as an umpire. If all you did wrong was miss an unexpected curve that might have crossed the plate high anyway, you had a great night (there is no such thing as 'late break' anyway, that's just a perception - unless someone attached rocket boosters to impart a force at the end of a pitch). The meltdown was coming, whether you called that a strike or not.

 

I forgot to clarify, that would have been the 3rd out.  I also agree that kids that young should not be throwing a curve. 

 

 

Whether that is true now seems subject to debate.  (I spent some time looking at this a year or two ago for my kid.)  While there were some studies that suggested curves were bad for the arm, recent studies suggest that those studies failed to account for pitches thrown -- and it was the kids who were throwing a lot who were also the ones throwing curves.  These more recent studies suggest that that it is overuse, not throwing curves that is an issue.  There was also a study that looked at arm stress and suggeted that a properly thrown curve ball put less stress on the arm than a fastball.  American Pediatrics Assocation, last time I looked, recognized the ambiguity in the data, and recommended puberty (which they descibed as when shaving begins) as the startnig point for curves. 

 

Based on the data I could find, I let my kid start learning (but not throw very much) a curve at 12 with a pitching coach that I really trusted to teach him proper mechanics.  I foucssed more on preventing overuse and ensuring appropriate rest for the arm (both during season and a significant off season with absolutely no pitching).  (But anyone looking out for their kid should not rely on my memory, but should go out and look at the data, includng the APA recommendation.)

 

 

Dr. Larry Lemak, noted sports orthopedic surgeon, agrees that the number of innings/pitches thrown when young is the key component in arm injuries among baseball players of ANY age.

[Jocko]

@Pete Peterson Sr - as does Dr. Jeff Dugas, of Andrews Sports Medicine. I discussed this with him at length.

[Rich Ives]

Does it hurt your arm when you snap your fingers (thumb/middle finger)?  If not then neither will a properly thrown curve.

[urout17]

General rule of thumb for my kids was no curve balls until you're old enough to drive. Being able to spot a 3-1 change up is a great weapon to have.

[Kevin_K]

Hijacked?

[DVA7130]

For at least OBR based codes (my knowledge base)

If they are batting continuous (or they just do not have any subs) there can be no pinch runners. Some sets allow courtesy runners for the picher and catcher of record only. The kid can either stick it out and run, or be removed from the game. In USSSA the offense records an out and then each time that spot in the lineup comes to bat. There is an exception for blood reasons where the last recorded out is placed on base and the spot in the lineup is skipped.

Of course if you need 9 to end the game, a forfeit is a possibility.

[PGOLDEN88]

For at least OBR based codes (my knowledge base)

If they are batting continuous (or they just do not have any subs) there can be no pinch runners. Some sets allow courtesy runners for the picher and catcher of record only. The kid can either stick it out and run, or be removed from the game. In USSSA the offense records an out and then each time that spot in the lineup comes to bat. There is an exception for blood reasons where the last recorded out is placed on base and the spot in the lineup is skipped.

Of course if you need 9 to end the game, a forfeit is a possibility.

I remember that it's only F2 is allowed to have a courtesy runner with 2 out. Maybe it's only my local rule though.

[DVA7130]

For at least OBR based codes (my knowledge base)

If they are batting continuous (or they just do not have any subs) there can be no pinch runners. Some sets allow courtesy runners for the picher and catcher of record only. The kid can either stick it out and run, or be removed from the game. In USSSA the offense records an out and then each time that spot in the lineup comes to bat. There is an exception for blood reasons where the last recorded out is placed on base and the spot in the lineup is skipped.

Of course if you need 9 to end the game, a forfeit is a possibility.

I remember that it's only F2 is allowed to have a courtesy runner with 2 out. Maybe it's only my local rule though.

Sounds like a local speed up rule.

[SoCal Lurker]

 

For at least OBR based codes (my knowledge base)

If they are batting continuous (or they just do not have any subs) there can be no pinch runners. Some sets allow courtesy runners for the picher and catcher of record only. The kid can either stick it out and run, or be removed from the game. In USSSA the offense records an out and then each time that spot in the lineup comes to bat. There is an exception for blood reasons where the last recorded out is placed on base and the spot in the lineup is skipped.

Of course if you need 9 to end the game, a forfeit is a possibility.

I remember that it's only F2 is allowed to have a courtesy runner with 2 out. Maybe it's only my local rule though.

 

 

I've seen CR rules all over the place.  F1 or F2 vs.only F2.  Only with 2 outs vs. at any time.  Optional vs. mandatory (mandatory I think when I've seen has always been the two out variety).  These are the types of rules that really need to be seen in writng to know the exact enforcement.  (And smart coaches consider the precise rules in making their batting order -- especially in a "mandaory" league, a smart coach never want slow-Joe batting right before F1 and F2 where he is likely to be a forced CR.

[KLAH316]

USSSA out here - CR for F1 and F2 at anytime. Eligible sub or if batting everyone, last batted out.

It's a great rule so F2 is ready to come out for warm-ups as soon as the last out is made.

[scblcommish]

USSSA out here - CR for F1 and F2 at anytime. Eligible sub or if batting everyone, last batted out.

It's a great rule so F2 is ready to come out for warm-ups as soon as the last out is made.

 

[scblcommish]

I disagree that CR for F1 and F2 is so great. CR for F1 is an advantage for the pitcher. Does not speed up the game by any significant margin. CR anytime is not explainable by any logical argument. CR for F2 with 2 outs makes sense. However, CR should always be optional. My 17 yo son is a catcher and regularly beats the runner to first on backup plays. I have had DCs try to insist he be replaced with a CR at 2 outs. Since there's a very high probability that he is one of the three or four fastest kids on the field, he stays on base no matter what.