Little league Majors - Leaving early

[layers73]

Sorry if this has been asked before - if it was I couldnt find it!

 

Runner on 1st (outs dont matter) 

 

Runner leaves early and batter hits a ground ball to SS

SS pivots and throws to 2nd base - however runner beats the throw ONLY BECASUE HE LEFT EARLY! 

IF he had not left early he would never have beat the throw

 

In Little league it seems the umpires are forced to leave this runner on 2nd base and reward his leaving early - is that correct?

[soapbox]

The penalty for leaving early isn't always fair. If the runner was on 3rd and left early on a single or even double, he returns to 3B. However, since he is forced to 2B, he stays there.

[layers73]

TY that is what I thought - but it just seems so unfair!

 

 

[Rich Ives]

Fair = same rule both teams.

 

Bases loaded. Batter hits a gapper. 3 runs score.  Batter thrown out trying for home.  Guess what.  All the runners go back and no runs score.

 

Sorry if this has been asked before - if it was I couldnt find it!

 

Runner on 1st (outs dont matter) 

 

Runner leaves early and batter hits a ground ball to SS

SS pivots and throws to 2nd base - however runner beats the throw ONLY BECASUE HE LEFT EARLY! 

IF he had not left early he would never have beat the throw

 

In Little league it seems the umpires are forced to leave this runner on 2nd base and reward his leaving early - is that correct?

 

If F6 then threw to 1B and got the batter then R1 would go back.

 

If a team is doing it consistently then warn the coach about deliberately breaking a rule and let him know that's an ejection and potential forfeit.

[soapbox]

Rich, may be the same for both, but is without a doubt a stupid rule. As is the "Poof" rule.

[Rich Ives]

If it's stupid what would you replace it with.

 

And don't say lead-offs because that would mean 99.24% success rates on stolen bases.

[SoCal Lurker]

Seems to me that what went into the rule is something like this.  We don't want kids leaving early.  We're playing for fun and to teach, so we don't want to make a cheap out.  So we make them go back. 

 

The rule (perhaps unrealistically) presumes that coaches aren't coacning players to cheat and that, therefore, a player leaving early has done so inadvertently.  And that seems to be pretty accurate -- I've never heard of an epidemic of players leaving early in LL.

[soapbox]

I would replace with an out. Leave it alone sub-majors. And if not an out, the OP is exactly why I don't like the rule. Why reward the offense for an illegal act.

[Jocko]

DELETED

[Rich Ives]

I would replace with an out.

 

This isn't softball.

 

In softball it will always be an out no matter what level you play. 

 

In baseball it  is never an out.

 

Making it an out has been voted down so many times at the LL Congress that they finally stopped putting it on the agenda.

[elares]

How many times do I have to see it before I conclude that the team is coaching the players to leave early in opposition to the rule (cheating).?  Then, when do I get to EJ the manager?

[Rich Ives]

How many times do I have to see it before I conclude that the team is coaching the players to leave early in opposition to the rule (cheating).?  Then, when do I get to EJ the manager?

 

How many times is up to you but I'd wait at least until the third one.  It'll happen often enough in a "no play resulted" situation to figure it out.

 

After you've decided it's happening warn once - then eject.

[DVA7130]

The USSSA rule for coach pitch:

7.09.N Runners shall not leadoff or steal bases. A runner is out for leaving the base before the ball is hit or reaches home plate.

But then again, starting at ten(under normal kid pitch rules) they start leadoffs, basic balks, steals, and dropped third strikes, and the world does not blow up. Honestly I do agree that the stealing percentage is too high in the lower levels of this.

The main problem with LL is Hello! 12 year olds are old enough to lead off!!

[basejester]

The main problem with LL is Hello! 12 year olds are old enough to lead off!!

There is a division of Little League for twelve year-olds who are ready for this.  

But there are lots of twelves in a recreational league who are not ready.

[Rich Ives]

The main problem with LL is Hello! 12 year olds are old enough to lead off!!

 

They may be old enough to lead off but they're not skilled enough to defend it IN A NORMAL LL GAME on a 60' field.  Get slightly older kids on a 70' field and go for it. You'll still have a 87.51% success rate. Higher if you can convince Lumbering Larry he really isn't fast enough to try it.

 

And in LL, majors allows 9-12 and many leagues have it 10-12 with limited 10's. It isn't just 12's.

[Mike Prince]

Where I am we are Cal RIpken chartered (vs. LL) and in Minors (9/10U) it is closed bases (60') and the board of directors has instituted a local rule that leaving early is immediate dead ball and an out.  Official Babe Ruth rules pretty much mirror the LL rules under discussion here.

 

11/12U is Majors and open bases (70').  Sorry to say but we get a lot more baseball in during a 9/10U game than an 11/12 game.  11/12's is full of ill-advised pickoff attempts/throwing the ball around and "track meet" baseball where every pitch is a reason for the runner to steal.  Pitchers are ill-equipped at that level to handle a baserunner and it shows - they get totally obsessed with the baserunner as soon as he gets on base.

[DVA7130]

I have seen both sides. 10U is definitely the described trackmeet, but 12u is definitely competitive with better catchers. Honestly in my experiance and area, the baseball is just better in non LL leagues than LL.

[Rich Ives]

Where I am we are Cal RIpken chartered (vs. LL) and in Minors (9/10U) it is closed bases (60') and the board of directors has instituted a local rule that leaving early is immediate dead ball and an out.  Official Babe Ruth rules pretty much mirror the LL rules under discussion here.

 

11/12U is Majors and open bases (70').  Sorry to say but we get a lot more baseball in during a 9/10U game than an 11/12 game.  11/12's is full of ill-advised pickoff attempts/throwing the ball around and "track meet" baseball where every pitch is a reason for the runner to steal.  Pitchers are ill-equipped at that level to handle a baserunner and it shows - they get totally obsessed with the baserunner as soon as he gets on base.

 

Ripken has both a 60' closed bases division and a 70' open bases division for 11-12 last I knew.

[Mike Prince]

 

Where I am we are Cal RIpken chartered (vs. LL) and in Minors (9/10U) it is closed bases (60') and the board of directors has instituted a local rule that leaving early is immediate dead ball and an out.  Official Babe Ruth rules pretty much mirror the LL rules under discussion here.

 

11/12U is Majors and open bases (70').  Sorry to say but we get a lot more baseball in during a 9/10U game than an 11/12 game.  11/12's is full of ill-advised pickoff attempts/throwing the ball around and "track meet" baseball where every pitch is a reason for the runner to steal.  Pitchers are ill-equipped at that level to handle a baserunner and it shows - they get totally obsessed with the baserunner as soon as he gets on base.

 

Ripken has both a 60' closed bases division and a 70' open bases division for 11-12 last I knew.

 

Yes, that is true (my post only talked about what our local assn. plays).  Reality is that very few majors teams in NC play in the 60' division.  Where I see this the most is at All-Stars (tournament) where a weaker 70' team enters the 60' division hoping that they will be more competitive.

[Guest Colorado Coach]

In regular season play we have teams from other leagues in the district that leave early all day long and nothing is done about it.  There is often only a plate ump at these games, and he is watching the strike zone.  Even the leagues that hire a base ump seem to be oblivious to this rule.  They are just not looking for it.  The rule is also way too complicated so I could see why umps don't bother.  For majors It should just be an out for the early base runner.  Much simpler to enforce and an immediate learning experience for the runner.  If you want to be more "learning friendly", perhaps offer a warning and send-back on the first offense by a team in a regular season game.  The fact that little league does not call early leads outs in major tournament play is just absurd.  These kids clearly know the rules at this point.  At least call them out in the cases where they beat a throw to a base that they left early for.  That is a no-brainer.

Commenters that think every coach out there is just coaching to teach and have fun don't live in the real world.  I've seen plenty of little league coaches that routinely cheat.  They usually play dumb when anybody mentions all the rules they are breaking.

 

[Velho]

This is proposed as an out in this years rules congress. IMO that would result in it getting called even less in regular season since banging the out is harsher than sending them back.

In last years LLWS I noticed very few (like none that I saw) runners were getting the legal jump off the base. I speculate over zealous calling in post season had made it not worth the effort.

[ErichKeane]

18 minutes ago, Guest Colorado Coach said:

In regular season play we have teams from other leagues in the district that leave early all day long and nothing is done about it.  There is often only a plate ump at these games, and he is watching the strike zone.  Even the leagues that hire a base ump seem to be oblivious to this rule.  They are just not looking for it.  The rule is also way too complicated so I could see why umps don't bother.  For majors It should just be an out for the early base runner.  Much simpler to enforce and an immediate learning experience for the runner.  If you want to be more "learning friendly", perhaps offer a warning and send-back on the first offense by a team in a regular season game.  The fact that little league does not call early leads outs in major tournament play is just absurd.  These kids clearly know the rules at this point.  At least call them out in the cases where they beat a throw to a base that they left early for.  That is a no-brainer.

Commenters that think every coach out there is just coaching to teach and have fun don't live in the real world.  I've seen plenty of little league coaches that routinely cheat.  They usually play dumb when anybody mentions all the rules they are breaking.

 

I did 1 game solo with a 'no leading' league, and it is basically impossible to tell 'left early' as a single umpire.  With a LH batter, I can't see 1B, and with the pitcher in the way, I can't see 2B, and either way, I'm looking for the pitch, not the runner.  It just ends up being an awful-to-umpire rule.

In 2 man, its ALSO pretty hard, at least if the runner is at 1B.  The base ump is supposed to be in 'B' behind 2nd (on the little field, you'd play outside I think), so he is mostly going to be watching the ball as well, so he's not going to see the runner at 1st.  The ONLY case I can see being even remotely possible to catching this would be if the runner is on 2B.

That said, I HATE non-leadoff leagues as ump even worse than the carousel of steals.  Constant "but he left early!" on every other steal and having to explain, "I didn't see him leave early" to each coach 3x an inning is demoralizing.  IMO, you're better off just prohibiting steals, so no leaving until bat-hits-ball, like in slow-pitch softball.

[beerguy55]

Another head hangs lowly
Child is slowly taken
And the violence, caused such silence
Who are we mistaken?

But you see, it's not me
It's not my family
In your head, in your head, they are fighting
With their tanks, and their bombs
And their bombs, and their guns
In your head, in your head they are crying

In your head, in your head
Zombie, zombie, zombie-ie-ie
What's in your head, in your head
Zombie, zombie, zombie-ie-ie, oh