First of 2014

[James Walker]

Got my first of the new season yesterday afternoon.

Stich-

9u nations tourney. VT batting. Down by 5 or 6 runs. One out, R2. Pitcher fakes to second, R2 gets the "deer in the headlights" look and finally makes a break for third. Pitcher takes a few steps then throws to third, and we have a run down. Couple of throws later, R2 gets tagged out. From the direction of the VT's dugout, I hear the old "can't throw to an unoccupied base" argument. I let it slide, but apparently this guy (who I later found out to be a fan) doesn't get the memo and continues. So I look that way and calmly say "you can to make a play" (even though it had nothing to do with this stich) Everything quiets down and we get back to playing. VT scores a few and the inning ends. As I'm jogging back to short RF, the HC catches up to me and asked if we could talk about the play. I tell him no, as its over with. He starts to walk away, I pull out the pitching log and start recording outs, score etc. I hear him talking but I'm not paying attention to what he's saying. The. He says, you gonna pay attention to me or just ignore me. So I turn to him and ask what's up ( thinking maybe he had a pitching change to report). He starts in on me with "that fan was right blah, blah, blah". I cut him off, tell him to knock it off. He wants to keep going, so I tell him that's enough. I turn to walk away and head more towards CF, when he says "you don't need to get mad at me cause you made a bad call... BOOM! Coach, you're done. As I was walking away, he just keeps talking. "I hope you don't do anything higher than 9u" "you don't even know what a balk is" etc. Partner took a little long to get there but he was back by the scores box confirming lineup changes, but once he got there it ended pretty quickly.

This was the first time I've had a coach try and get his money's worth after an EJ. Any feedback is appreciated.

[conbo61]

IF he approached me in a civilized manner, I would not have cut him off, but rather taken the opportunity to educate him on the finer points of the rule.  I would explain, give him the opportunity to ask a question or two (again - only if it is civil) and THEN move on.

 

If he is coming up to me aggressive and confrontational, then I would keep it short and sweet.

 

That's just me.  

[blue23ll]

9U ball, eh? A couple of comments. Why did you tell the HC you couldn't talk about the play? This set the tone for the testy behavior. Go ahead, and hear him out, give him a short explanation, and then if he turns into a butthole, then toss him. Remember, in this level of kiddie ball, we are teaching as much as officiating, and this includes coaches.

[grayhawk]

I agree with the others.  If he has a question about a play, then why stonewall him?  Coaches have a right to ask legitimate questions about what happens on the field.  Being approachable is an important part of umpiring.  Approaching umpires in the right way is an important part of coaching.

[JaxRolo]

You miss-handled this one. You looked like the bad guy from the start.

 

Hopefully it is a learning experience.

[th3]

balks at 9U?

[tldavis19]

I agree with everything said so far. Answer his question then if he gets angry, shut him down. Don't make yourself unavailable to answer questions, especially on a lesser known rule such as this. Might have been avoided had you seen what he had to say. Being helpful to coaches saves yourself a lot of hassle and also umpires that have that coach after you.

balks at 9U?

I wondered that too, balks here don't start until 12U

[James Walker]

I was a little out of my element working kids that young. I haven't done a 10u game, let alone a 9u in awhile.

I told him we couldn't talk about it because it was well over and done. The tag was made almost at third, and after making the call I stood there for a few seconds because I figured he might have a question or want to talk. He didn't even look my way, so back to A I went.

When I told him we couldn't talk about it, I explained to him his right to call time and come talk to me. But to wait that long, there's nothing I can do to fix it at that point. In my defense, I did explain (quickly) to the first base coach why it wasn't a balk. I had this coach earlier in the day and he came out a few times to ask a question, so he knew I was approachable.

And it's not like he doesn't know what he's doing. He runs one of the "academies" and has teams from 8u up to 14u.

[Mike Prince]

I could see if the HC questioned the original call and you gave him an explanation, then there is no basis for further discussion about it with him.  But I agree with the others that stonewalling his polite (and initial) request and then dumping him makes you look to be the bad guy here.

[James Walker]

You miss-handled this one. You looked like the bad guy from the start.

 

Hopefully it is a learning experience.

Everyday Rolo. That's why I brought it here. Can always count on you guys to tell me to pull my head out and stop being a dufus.

[conbo61]

Really - what could you "fix" if he came out right after the call?  The call was made and unless your partner had information you were not privy to, your call would stand.

[James Walker]

balks at 9U?

Only called like one or two. And those were elephants. Quick pitch, not coming set, fakes to 1st/3rd were pretty much all we were instructed to call.

[grayhawk]

I was a little out of my element working kids that young. I haven't done a 10u game, let alone a 9u in awhile.

I told him we couldn't talk about it because it was well over and done. The tag was made almost at third, and after making the call I stood there for a few seconds because I figured he might have a question or want to talk. He didn't even look my way, so back to A I went.

When I told him we couldn't talk about it, I explained to him his right to call time and come talk to me. But to wait that long, there's nothing I can do to fix it at that point. In my defense, I did explain (quickly) to the first base coach why it wasn't a balk. I had this coach earlier in the day and he came out a few times to ask a question, so he knew I was approachable.

 

And it's not like he doesn't know what he's doing. He runs one of the "academies" and has teams from 8u up to 14u.

 

Coaches sometimes want to ask a question about a play between innings.  Most of the time, they just want a clarification on something.  Just because he waited until the inning ended does not mean that you shouldn't answer a legitimate question.

 

Coach:  Can we talk about that play?

Umpire:  Sure, what's your question?

Coach:  Isn't it a balk if the pitcher throws to an unoccupied base?

Umpire:  Sometimes.  But pitchers can throw to an unoccupied base from the rubber for the purpose of making a play.  Since your runner broke for third, the pitcher can throw there to make that play.

Coach:  Okay, thanks.

 

Not saying it would definitely have been this civil, but I doubt it would have ended in an ejection.

[conbo61]

The kind of exchange @grayhawk mentioned goes a LONG way to enhancing your reputation as an umpire.  As he noted in a previous post, approach-ability is very important.  But what it also does is that it gives you an opportunity to show the coach that you know what your talking about.  That you know the rule and its proper application.  That also enhances your rep.

 

I know when I coached if I had a question and got cut-off, I tended to think that the ump didn't know the rule and by cutting me off he was not going to expose himself.

 

Again - all of this only applies if the coach is civil.

[bam]

Screw him. Toss him. Forget about him.

That's what I always say!

[UmpJM]

James,

 

I pretty much concur with the comments above.

 

I'll just add you seem to have "impartial and firm" down pretty well.

 

Perhaps a little work on "courteous" is in order.

 

Edited to add....

 

I had a coach ask me in a game last weekend (HS JV) between innings why I hadn't called a balk when his opponent's F1 had thrown a pick-off directly to 1B while the F3 was nowhere near the bag. Now he was being a perfect gentleman about it, so I explained that as long as the throw goes to the bag, he's fine. I allowed that if he had thrown to the F3 that far off the bag, I would have called a balk. He then said, but if the fielder isn't covering, isn't that throwing to an unoccupied base? I'll admit, I did not see that one coming. I said, no, technically speaking, only runners can "occupy' a base. I thought it would take too long to clear up the confusion, so I suggested I would be happy to follow up with him after the game. He was fine with that & returned to his dugout & the game continued.

 

I looked for him after I'd changed after the game, but they were the visitors and had made a quick exit.

 

That evening, I sent him a follow-up e-mail in which I allowed how that was an easy thing to get confused about, because there is nothing in the text of the FED Rule or Case book that clearly describes that specific situation. (There isn't.) Then I explained a carefully as I could how situations where fielders are not near the bag when a pick-off occurs are properly ruled, and supplied him with a MLBUM cite that said pretty much exactly what I had told him on the field. ("...However, there is no violation if the pitcher throws the ball directly to first base in this situation. ..") I also gave him a brief explanation of what "occupying a base" meant and the attendant balk proscription. I closed by thanking him for his professional demeanor in bringing his question to me and wishing him luck with the rest of his season.

 

A couple of hours later, I get an e-mail thanking me for following up and he's calling me names like "thoughtful" and "professional" says he loved that I was willing to follow-up after the game, thought I did a "great job" (it was a V/JV Dh - I had the V plate & the JV bases) and he hopes they get me again later in the season. And my assigner is copied on the note.

 

So, I show the coach the simple courtesy of attempting to answer his reasonable question between innings, then following up when time ran short.

 

You end up dumping an AC in a freakin' 9U game because you wouldn't give the coach the time of day.

 

My assigner gets an e-mail from a delighted client calling one of his umpires thoughtful and professional, and that his umpire did "a great job".

 

Your assigner gets an ejection report and an impression you don't have the game management skills to deal with a 9U game.

 

Which would you rather have?

 

 

JM

[bam]

In all seriousness, it's easy to say you should entertain his question, and you probably should (if I remembered any http I would bold "should").

At the same time, what good could possibly come from THAT conversation. The answer is A LOT more bad than good, that's what. You know what he wants and you know what he wants to hear.

There's certainly a lot more to the equation - inning, score, previous history in the game with that coach, etc. all things being equal, I'd give him the time of day, but not much more.

But wait! I just thought of this! It's the frickin 9U nations tourney! Given the stakes, you GOT to give the skip A LOT of rope....

Sheesh.

[UmpJM]

bam,

 

In all seriousness, you make a good point. I was taking a "calculated risk", and my decision to do as I did was influenced by the fact that I've worked a number of games for this coach over the last few years, and on the handful of occasions when he's come out to talk to the umpire, he has always had a "legitimate" question or issue and conducted himself like a gentleman. This was also a JV non-con game and was not the least bit "heated".

 

But even if my previous experience had indicated he had a tendency towards jerkiness and this was some crucial big conference game, I'm still going to answer his question. I mean, if he asks me something like "Why do you keep screwing us with your calls?" or something like that, it's going to be a much different conversation.

 

Anyway, I think you make a good point, and I'm glad you raised it.

 

JM

[blue23ll]

In all seriousness, it's easy to say you should entertain his question, and you probably should (if I remembered any http I would bold "should").

At the same time, what good could possibly come from THAT conversation. The answer is A LOT more bad than good, that's what. You know what he wants and you know what he wants to hear.

There's certainly a lot more to the equation - inning, score, previous history in the game with that coach, etc. all things being equal, I'd give him the time of day, but not much more.

But wait! I just thought of this! It's the frickin 9U nations tourney! Given the stakes, you GOT to give the skip A LOT of rope....

Sheesh.

It could not have gotten much worse, the coach ended up getting dumped. Had he entertained the question, who knows, maybe he stays in the game. If not, we have the same result, and we don't end up looking like we are unapproachable.

[bam]

In all seriousness, it's easy to say you should entertain his question, and you probably should (if I remembered any http I would bold "should").

At the same time, what good could possibly come from THAT conversation. The answer is A LOT more bad than good, that's what. You know what he wants and you know what he wants to hear.

There's certainly a lot more to the equation - inning, score, previous history in the game with that coach, etc. all things being equal, I'd give him the time of day, but not much more.

But wait! I just thought of this! It's the frickin 9U nations tourney! Given the stakes, you GOT to give the skip A LOT of rope....

Sheesh.

It could not have gotten much worse, the coach ended up getting dumped. Had he entertained the question, who knows, maybe he stays in the game. If not, we have the same result, and we don't end up looking like we are unapproachable. Ya know, I NEVER thought of that!

You must pick an awful lot of lottery winning numbers the morning after the big drawing.

[blue23ll]

Yes, I had hindsight lasix.

[bam]

I'm going on record for endorsing the umpire indulging the coach.

But my point stands - don't go looking for trouble AND don't let trouble find you.

[blue23ll]

We are in violent agreement!!

[James Walker]

I will be the first to admit, my game management is no where near where I'd like it to be. I am steadily improving, but not at the rate I want.

I told both my assigner and the TD as soon as the game finished. Told them exactly like I put on here. They didn't have a problem with the EJ, but my assigner hit on the same points y'all did.

Before I really had a clue what I was doing, I would discuss previous plays with coaches. Most of the time it ended okay, but I have had It blow up in my face on more than once. So I try to not get in that position, although I see how that could be seen as being defensive/unsure of my call.

Most of the feedback from my assigner is positive. Partners all say I do a good job. Coaches like having me because I'm knowledgable of rules, work hard and do a good job of explaining situations/calls. Most of the negative is positioning, though not from lack of hustle, just a few brain farts.

I really do appreciate the feedback guys.

[sdix00]

As the thread winds down I will mention something I have not seen mentioned much in the thread, unless I missed it. If you can, there should be a stern, clear and unmistakable warning prior to the ejection. I know the coach used the magic word, but I would still clearly warn prior to the EJ. I keep a list of warnings and other things to say to managers and review it periodically. Many of these are stolen from the guys on this board. http://thesitch.postach.io/handling-tense-situations-with-managers Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk