Prepare for 2014: Play 8

[maven]

This question is FED only.

 

SITUATION: Tie game, late innings. Team A has starter Jones pitching, and has been batting for Jones with DH Smith. While on defense, Team A's coach decides to substitute Smith for Jones. Smith pitches to one batter, whom he retires. The coach then removes Smith and returns Jones to the mound, who finishes the inning. While team A is batting, the DH spot comes up. The coach sends Smith, the DH, up to the plate. After Smith takes his place in the batter's box, Team B's coach requests time and asks the PU to rule Smith out and restrict him to the dugout on the grounds that, since the DH role has been terminated, he is an illegal substitute.

 

RULING: ??

[grayhawk]

Tricky.  Seems to me that this is a legal straight substitution.  Both are starters and can be removed once and re-enter the game:

 

Jones was substituted for by Smith, which terminates the DH

Smith was substituted for by Jones

Jones was substituted for a second time by Smith (Jones is now out for the remainder of the game)

Smith is now the pitcher when they take the field, unless legally substituted for by another player

 

That's my best guess.

[Thunderheads]

Tricky.  Seems to me that this is a legal straight substitution.  Both are starters and can be removed once and re-enter the game:

 

Jones was substituted for by Smith, which terminates the DH agree

Smith was substituted for by Jones yes

Jones was substituted for a second time by Smith (Jones is now out for the remainder of the game) when he came into bat .....

Smith is now the pitcher when they take the field, unless legally substituted for by another player

 

That's my best guess.

I agree.  He's not out though, like Coach B is requesting

[ALStripes17]

Agree with both comments. Once Smith takes his place in the batters box after the substitution/killed DH, Jones reentry - Smith has now become the legal reentry for Jones. Jones is now done for the game. Just a substitution/reentry

We have two requirements as officials: make it safe; make it fair

[Jocko]

Delve a bit deeper as to why this is only a substitution.... Its important to not only know the what, but the why.

[noumpere]

Delve a bit deeper as to why this is only a substitution.... Its important to not only know the what, but the why.

Smith and Jones are both in the game at the start.

 

When Smith pitches, he's still in the game, but Jones is out.

 

When Jones re-enters, he uses up his re-entry.

 

When Smith re-enters, he uses up his re-entry (and since Jones has re-entered once, he is done for the game).

 

Is that what you were looking for?

 

This play is right out of either the case book or one of the annual interpretations (and I think the 2014s are out as well)

[maven]

What, nobody will comment about my fictitious coach, who not only knows when an ineligible player becomes an illegal player (entering the batter's box) BUT also knows the correct penalty?!?

 

[maven]

Smith is now the pitcher when they take the field, unless legally substituted for by another player

 

You're saying Smith must pitch in the next half inning, when his team returns to defense?

[Thunderheads]

 

Smith is now the pitcher when they take the field, unless legally substituted for by another player

 

You're saying Smith must pitch in the next half inning, when his team returns to defense?

 

Smith is now the pitcher when they take the field, unless legally substituted for by another player

 

no, ^^^^^^^ that is what he said

[Mike Prince]

What, nobody will comment about my fictitious coach, who not only knows when an ineligible player becomes an illegal player (entering the batter's box) BUT also knows the correct penalty?!?

 

 

Some of the only rules coaches know are substitution rules and those which can get them free outs.  Well, maybe they don't know them but they might get lucky if they ask for the penalty often enough.

[Mike Prince]

 

 

Smith is now the pitcher when they take the field, unless legally substituted for by another player

 

You're saying Smith must pitch in the next half inning, when his team returns to defense?

 

Smith is now the pitcher when they take the field, unless legally substituted for by another player

 

no, ^^^^^^^ that is what he said

 

 

I think the point is that Smith is now the pitcher (vs. the DH) during the at-bat in question.  If he stays in the game beyond that AB he is the pitcher unless a legal substitution is made. (which kind of has already been said)

[grayhawk]

 

Smith is now the pitcher when they take the field, unless legally substituted for by another player

 

You're saying Smith must pitch in the next half inning, when his team returns to defense?

 

 

Others have clarified, but we also know that Smith could change positions with another player already in the game when they come in on defense.  For example, the third baseman could now take the mound and Smith could play third.  Or, F5 could pitch, F8 plays third and Smith is now F8.

[maven]

 

 

 

Smith is now the pitcher when they take the field, unless legally substituted for by another player

 

You're saying Smith must pitch in the next half inning, when his team returns to defense?

 

Smith is now the pitcher when they take the field, unless legally substituted for by another player

 

no, ^^^^^^^ that is what he said

 

 

I think the point is that Smith is now the pitcher (vs. the DH) during the at-bat in question.  If he stays in the game beyond that AB he is the pitcher unless a legal substitution is made. (which kind of has already been said)

 

 

This is why I ask: nobody is the pitcher when a team is batting. When a team is on offense, all we have is a batting order.

 

Moreover, if Smith remains in the game, he does NOT have to pitch to a batter (as he would per 3-1-2 if he replaced the pitcher while on defense). He might go play 1B, and the former F3 could go pitch. Nothing locks Smith into a particular defensive position.

 

So Smith is not necessarily the pitcher, nor must he be subbed for in order to have someone else pitch.

[Mike Prince]

Well, Smith can't be the DH when he comes up to bat either, because the DH was negated when Smith played the field the previous inning, correct?  So he is batting in the pitcher's spot as a position player, not a DH.

 

And, the point has been made that Smith can remain in the game at any position with an appropriate, legal substitution or simple position swap.

 

Real games cannot get here soon enough.

Edited February 7, 2014 by Mike Prince

[noumpere]

One point related to that is that you can't (well, at least legally) courtesy run for Smith in this at bat (where he appears for Jones).

[maven]

Well, Smith can't be the DH when he comes up to bat either, because the DH was negated when Smith played the field the previous inning, correct?  So he is batting in the pitcher's spot as a position player, not a DH.

 

The idea of a "pitcher's spot" is a holdover from OBR that doesn't apply in FED and leads to confusion. We can talk about a "DH spot," but that's misleading too, since if the role of the DH is terminated, that player still has a spot in the lineup.

 

We have a batting order on offense, that is all. If all 9 players want to change positions when they go back out on defense, that's legal. They can do that every inning if they want.

 

Edited to add: @noumpere does offer a reason to think of it as at least the "former pitcher's spot," since that has an impact on courtesy runners. OTOH, we don't use those...

[Jocko]

Delve a bit deeper as to why this is only a substitution.... Its important to not only know the what, but the why.

Smith and Jones are both in the game at the start. When Smith pitches, he's still in the game, but Jones is out. When Jones re-enters, he uses up his re-entry. When Smith re-enters, he uses up his re-entry (and since Jones has re-entered once, he is done for the game). Is that what you were looking for? This play is right out of either the case book or one of the annual interpretations (and I think the 2014s are out as well)yes. Also, worthy of note: an unnanounced sub is a legal sub under fed rules.