Abandonment?

[Richvee]

R2, R1, 1 out. Double steal. R2 out @3rd, R1 advances to 2nd. Defense thinks it's 3 outs, rolls the ball in and starts jogging off the field. R1 (now at 2nd) takes 2-3  steps towards the middle of the infield when his coach yells, "2 outs...Run to 3rd! ". Defense scrambles back on the field in time to hold runner at 3rd. 

 

Should I have nailed R1 for abandonment for taking 2 or 3 steps towards his bench? Is that a "reasonable distance" as stated in 7.08(a) PLAY? 

[JaxRolo]

I wouldn't

[Richvee]

I didn't. I gave him 3rd and we continued.  I did have the obligatory "discussion" with the DM, who wanted the out for R1 running "out of the baseline". When I told him a tag attempt is needed before establishing a basepath, DM looked at me like  I had 2 heads. Got the old "I never heard that before" line.   Then he says, "This isn't my 1st game, you know"..To which I smiled and said "It's not mine either"

[Jocko]

No

[Texas Manny]

I didn't. I gave him 3rd and we continued.  I did have the obligatory "discussion" with the DM, who wanted the out for R1 running "out of the baseline". When I told him a tag attempt is needed before establishing a basepath, DM looked at me like  I had 2 heads. Got the old "I never heard that before" line.   Then he says, "This isn't my 1st game, you know"..To which I smiled and said "It's not mine either"

Rich,

 

What did you mean by "I gave him 3rd and we continued."?

 

Thanks!

[Richvee]

 

I didn't. I gave him 3rd and we continued.  I did have the obligatory "discussion" with the DM, who wanted the out for R1 running "out of the baseline". When I told him a tag attempt is needed before establishing a basepath, DM looked at me like  I had 2 heads. Got the old "I never heard that before" line.   Then he says, "This isn't my 1st game, you know"..To which I smiled and said "It's not mine either"

Rich,

 

What did you mean by "I gave him 3rd and we continued."?

 

Thanks!

 

Poor choice of words. After taking a few steps off 2nd he ran to 3rd. Should have said he was safe at 3rd and we continued. 

[mstaylor]

I didn't. I gave him 3rd and we continued.  I did have the obligatory "discussion" with the DM, who wanted the out for R1 running "out of the baseline". When I told him a tag attempt is needed before establishing a basepath, DM looked at me like  I had 2 heads. Got the old "I never heard that before" line.   Then he says, "This isn't my 1st game, you know"..To which I smiled and said "It's not mine either"

May not be his first game but it must be his first day with s rulebook.

Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2

[Richvee]

 

I didn't. I gave him 3rd and we continued.  I did have the obligatory "discussion" with the DM, who wanted the out for R1 running "out of the baseline". When I told him a tag attempt is needed before establishing a basepath, DM looked at me like  I had 2 heads. Got the old "I never heard that before" line.   Then he says, "This isn't my 1st game, you know"..To which I smiled and said "It's not mine either"

May not be his first game but it must be his first day with s rulebook.

Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2

 

You want a good laugh? After the game he said, "I'll look up that rule about a tag and the baseline and let you now". I just said, "OK, you do that." 

[mstaylor]

 

I didn't. I gave him 3rd and we continued.  I did have the obligatory "discussion" with the DM, who wanted the out for R1 running "out of the baseline". When I told him a tag attempt is needed before establishing a basepath, DM looked at me like  I had 2 heads. Got the old "I never heard that before" line.   Then he says, "This isn't my 1st game, you know"..To which I smiled and said "It's not mine either"

May not be his first game but it must be his first day with s rulebook.

Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2

 

You want a good laugh? After the game he said, "I'll look up that rule about a tag and the baseline and let you now". I just said, "OK, you do that." 

I don't quote rule numbers until they say something stupid like this, then I tell them the rule number to save them time.

Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2

[Richvee]

 

 

 

I didn't. I gave him 3rd and we continued.  I did have the obligatory "discussion" with the DM, who wanted the out for R1 running "out of the baseline". When I told him a tag attempt is needed before establishing a basepath, DM looked at me like  I had 2 heads. Got the old "I never heard that before" line.   Then he says, "This isn't my 1st game, you know"..To which I smiled and said "It's not mine either"

May not be his first game but it must be his first day with s rulebook.

Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2

 

  You want a good laugh? After the game he said, "I'll look up that rule about a tag and the baseline and let you now". I just said, "OK, you do that." 

I don't quote rule numbers until they say something stupid like this, then I tell them the rule number to save them time.

Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2

 

I would have if I could have. I don't have rule numbers memorized and I'm not doing that unless I'm 110% sure. I was going to say "look  under the section that says "A runner is out..", but I opted for "OK, you do that". Figured it might keep him busy a while and if he actually does look it up, maybe he'll learn a few other things along the way. 

[afaber12]

R2, R1, 1 out. Double steal. R2 out @3rd, R1 advances to 2nd. Defense thinks it's 3 outs, rolls the ball in and starts jogging off the field. R1 (now at 2nd) takes 2-3  steps towards the middle of the infield when his coach yells, "2 outs...Run to 3rd! ". Defense scrambles back on the field in time to hold runner at 3rd. 

 

Should I have nailed R1 for abandonment for taking 2 or 3 steps towards his bench? Is that a "reasonable distance" as stated in 7.08(a) PLAY? 

 

Even if ordinarily that was enough distance from the base to call it - which I don't think it is - given the circumstances, I'm not going to bang the guy out for being deked by the fielding team, intentionally or otherwise, particularly when there's some chance they can get him out on a tag. Also, without knowing directions, body language, etc, I'm also going to give him a chance to be playing along with the defence, and trying to avoid suspicion while trying to subtly advance to 3B, maybe even home.

[hill2933]

May be a dumb question but I seem to be full of them. If R1 was heading back to first base dugout would he have to retouch second on the way to third? Just thinking of the arguments DM could make.

[Scratch Franzeo]

It would be hard for me not to be a smart a$$ when the coach asked about the third out. Instead of just saying, "no, there was no baseline infraction," I would want to say, "so you want me to penalize the offense because your team didn't know how many outs they had?"

[afaber12]

May be a dumb question but I seem to be full of them. If R1 was heading back to first base dugout would he have to retouch second on the way to third? Just thinking of the arguments DM could make.

 

I'd go back to the runner establishing his own base path. So what if traditionally a runner taking an arc towards the next base goes outside of the diamond? Doesn't mean he can't take an arc inside the diamond. Besides, if you felt he had to retouch 2nd, you'd also be opening yourself to the argument that "... he [ran] the bases in reverse order for the purpose of confusing the defense or making a travesty of the game." Yes the defence was already confused, and maybe that confused the runner, but maybe he added to their confusion. Per the full reading of that rule:

 

7.08 Any runner is out when—

(i) After he has acquired legal possession of a base, he runs the bases in reverse order for the purpose of confusing the defense or making a travesty of the game. The umpire shall immediately call “Time†and declare the runner out;

 

I wouldn't call him out on that. I wouldn't uphold an appeal at 2nd for "missing" the base here, on the basis that he'd only have to retouch if running the bases in reverse, and if he'd done that I would have called him out already.

[Larry in TN]

My son's LL Junior team scored two runs (R3 & R2) last season when the defense mistakenly thought that there was three-outs and headed for the dugout.

[Mr Umpire]

 

May be a dumb question but I seem to be full of them. If R1 was heading back to first base dugout would he have to retouch second on the way to third? Just thinking of the arguments DM could make.

 

I'd go back to the runner establishing his own base path. So what if traditionally a runner taking an arc towards the next base goes outside of the diamond? Doesn't mean he can't take an arc inside the diamond. Besides, if you felt he had to retouch 2nd, you'd also be opening yourself to the argument that "... he [ran] the bases in reverse order for the purpose of confusing the defense or making a travesty of the game." Yes the defence was already confused, and maybe that confused the runner, but maybe he added to their confusion. Per the full reading of that rule:

 

7.08 Any runner is out when—

(i) After he has acquired legal possession of a base, he runs the bases in reverse order for the purpose of confusing the defense or making a travesty of the game. The umpire shall immediately call “Time†and declare the runner out;

 

I wouldn't call him out on that. I wouldn't uphold an appeal at 2nd for "missing" the base here, on the basis that he'd only have to retouch if running the bases in reverse, and if he'd done that I would have called him out already.

 

Once the runner started back in the direction of 1B, regardless if it is toward his dugout or not, he is liable for an appeal at 2B and needs to retouch on his way to 3B.  It does not matter why he started toward 1B. The fact is he did.  His basepath does not allow him to run toward 1B.  To determine if this was or not would be a HTBT situation, but it sounds like he probably should have if appealed from what I imagine happened.

 

As for abandonment, not even close to one especially since he did have the option of returning to 1B.  He can easily use that argument.  Once it is ABSOLUTELY clear he is not running the bases anymore (in the dugout is a good rule of thumb and is a rule for FED I believe), then he can be called out for it.  But, I'd give them a lot of rope before making that call.

[noumpere]

 

 

I wouldn't call him out on that. I wouldn't uphold an appeal at 2nd for "missing" the base here, on the basis that he'd only have to retouch if running the bases in reverse, and if he'd done that I would have called him out already.

 

You only get the "reverse" out for "making a travesty" of the game and the runner wasn't doing that.

 

So, you need to umpire.  A moving runner is either advancing or retreating.  If he was retreating then he has to re-touch second.

 

The rules don't cover "was confused" so you need to decide what to do if its not clear.  For me, he has to be clearly retreating and Im giving the benefit of the doubt in this case to not making him retouch.

[Dannytheman]

Good call!  I am happy someone else couldn't recite that rules by name and number. When that manager said he was going to look up the rule after the game, I would have said, "Me too"!

[Richvee]

I would go along with R1 having to retouch 2nd IF he headed a few steps towards 1st on his way to the bench. However, in my particular sitch, the entrance to the benches are just to the left and right of home plate, so his steps were almost directly towards the pitcher's mound, and not towards 1st. A HTBT for sure, but in my case, I'd say no retouch was necessary. 

[Mr Umpire]

I would go along with R1 having to retouch 2nd IF he headed a few steps towards 1st on his way to the bench. However, in my particular sitch, the entrance to the benches are just to the left and right of home plate, so his steps were almost directly towards the pitcher's mound, and not towards 1st. A HTBT for sure, but in my case, I'd say no retouch was necessary. 

Yeah, for most of the ones I do, the dugout entrances are more towards the bases than HP.  That is why I said it is a HTBT.