Didn't happen... but

[kwiggie]

Didn't happen exactly like this but the situation warranted a discussion between a partner and myself in the parking lot after a game this Summer that led to this senario. This Summer league plays by OBR rules but catcherrunner contact is limited to a forced slideavoid contact senario.

 

R1, R3 on base... F1 mistakenly starts from the wind-up. Both runners break and B1 squares to bunt with a 2 ball/ 2 strike count and 1 out upon F1's first move to deliver. F1 produces a quick pitch in an effort to put out R3 (balkillegal pitch?). B1 makes an attempt at the quick pitch delivery and foul tips. R3 is dead to rights, even as F2 has to move througharound B1 to get up the 3rd base line with the ball. R3 opps to barrel through F2 and is now on the hook for ejection due to malicious contact with F2. The ball is dislodged from F2, R3 crawls to touch home plate. R1 advances to third base while F2 is regaining composure from the malicious contact.

 

Sort this out?

[Texas Manny]

My only question is you say the batter squares to bunt, then the pitcher quick pitches. Then you say "B1 makes an attempt at the quick pitch delivery and foul tips."   Which came first: squaring and then the pitch, or the pitch then the squaring in an attempt to hit?

 

Pitch first, then square:

 

Rule 8.05(e). Quick pitch with runners on base is a balk. "That's a balk!" Once the pitch was delivered and was not put into play by the batter, "Time! You (R3), score. You (R1), second base."

 

Everything else is inconsequential.

 

 

 

 

Square first, then pitch:

 

It's not a quick pitch because a quick pitch must be judged as a pitch before the batter was reasonably set (see 8.05e comment). You can't be squared for a bunt and not be reasonably set.

 

 

 

Next you have to judge if you have any batter interference against F2.

 

Interference: Batter is out on the foul tip third strike. His interference causes R3 to be declared out. Three outs, inning is over.

 

NO interference: Play continues.

 

 

 

 

 

Malicious Contact Rule:

 

You need to clarify your MC rule and what it demands. Does it call for only an ejection or an out, or both? Does the ball stay alive or dead?

 

We need more information to be able to decide properly from here.

[mstaylor]

I agree with Manny, but my question is why do you say he QPed. That is pretty hard to do from the wind-up, you can hurry it up and be legal. If he simply rushed the wind-up, then it is legal and we tackle the rest. 

[JaxRolo]

I agree not really a quick pitch from wind-up. Therefore no balk.

[maven]

1. No QP. You say F1 started his motion, and if he didn't QP up to that point, then hurrying the rest of the motion is legal. A QP involves pitching when the batter is not ready.
2. No balk.
3. The batter is out on the foul tip/strike 3. 2 outs, the ball remains live.
4. R3 is out and ejected for the MC/INT. 3 outs, inning over.
5. Nothing else happened, since the ball became dead on the MC/INT and the inning was over.

[noumpere]

I agree with Mavens analysis of the play.

 

Texas Manny indicated that in might be INT on the batter, but that's unlikely after he attempted to bunt unless he made some other move that wasn't described.

 

And if it had been zero outs at the start of the play then R1 returns to TOI.  Given what happened Id have to be sure R1 was already at second before Id leave him there.

[maven]

And if it had been zero outs at the start of the play then R1 returns to TOI.  Given what happened Id have to be sure R1 was already at second before Id leave him there.

 

Good point.

[mstaylor]

 

1. No QP. You say F1 started his motion, and if he didn't QP up to that point, then hurrying the rest of the motion is legal. A QP involves pitching when the batter is not ready.
2. No balk.
3. The batter is out on the foul tip/strike 3. 2 outs, the ball remains live.
4. R3 is out and ejected for the MC/INT. 3 outs, inning over.
5. Nothing else happened, since the ball became dead on the MC/INT and the inning was over.

 

A QP can also be the pitcher walking into his windup. I doubt that happened here but it is possible.

[Texas Manny]

Texas Manny indicated that in might be INT on the batter, but that's unlikely after he attempted to bunt unless he made some other move that wasn't described.

 

I think you misinterpreted the format that I answered with. I did not indicate that there was interference. I divided up the scenario sequentially. First was the issue of the QP. Still waiting on the OP's answers, but yes, you can QP from the windup.

 

Next came the potential interference by the batter. All I did was list by A) Yes, there was interference and what happened; or B) No there wasn't interference, move on.

 

Since the MC can be created by the league, and not necessarily a straight forward adoption of FED or NCAA rules, I asked for clarification on the rule so that I could complete my answer.

 

All I did was give the play broken down by options. If this, then that, and so on. Clarification of the QP situation will help simplify, as will the MC rule. Interference is a judgment call and only you can decide what happened by the OP's statements, and that will dictate action in of itself, provided there was no QP.

[Jocko]

According to the OP, runners broke on F1's first move and he was "mistakenly" in the windup. I'm finding this difficult to see as a QP. Sounds like he just sped up his delivery. That bekng the case, remove the qp from the equation and maven has it down pat.

[kwiggie]

To clarify this league's rules regarding MC. The player committing the infraction is ejected and an outouts are awarded if the MC interfered or denied a put out, runners can be put outreset as well just like an interference.

 

Let me put more detail to this picture. F1 (RHP) takes his "rocker" step with his left foot behind the plate. B1, B3 break to advance, B1 squares.

 

Let's say this about F1's next move:

1. F1 delivers somthing that looks more like an infielders throw than a wind up home. (Balk?)

2. F1 after initiating his wind-up with his left foot, then steps off the rubber with his pivot foot in an effort to disengage. (balk)

 

I mentioned it in the OP, this league plays by OBR rules (with a couple of tweeks) so balks are a delayed dead ball infraction. 

 

Dont leave me hanging guys

[afaber12]

To clarify this league's rules regarding MC. The player committing the infraction is ejected and an outouts are awarded if the MC interfered or denied a put out, runners can be put outreset as well just like an interference.

 

Let me put more detail to this picture. F1 (RHP) takes his "rocker" step with his left foot behind the plate. B1, B3 break to advance, B1 squares.

 

Let's say this about F1's next move:

1. F1 delivers somthing that looks more like an infielders throw than a wind up home. (Balk?)

2. F1 after initiating his wind-up with his left foot, then steps off the rubber with his pivot foot in an effort to disengage. (balk)

 

I mentioned it in the OP, this league plays by OBR rules (with a couple of tweeks) so balks are a delayed dead ball infraction. 

 

Dont leave me hanging guys

 

I don't think (1) can be a balk unless there's a specific infraction. Just because its a sped up move to the plate doesn't make it a balk on its own. The only way I can think that it could possibly be a balk is if he steps back with his pivot foot, notices that the runner's going and stops because he's trying to work out what he's supposed to do, per 8.05:

 

8.05 If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when—

(a) The pitcher, while touching his plate, makes any motion naturally associated with his pitch and fails to make such delivery;

 

(2) is definitely a balk, for the same reason as above. If its a balk, then no pitch is added to the batter's count (though some pitching restriction rules for juniors might count it as a pitch towards that player's total), so he can't be out for the caught strike three. If there's no balk, then he's out.

 

My feeling is if there's a balk, and on the same play R3 attempting to score would otherwise be out either for being tagged or in the aftermath of a interference/malicious contact ruling, then regardless of any other consequences the run has to be scored, short of a local rule that specifically prevents a run from scoring in a balk or other situation where the runner is entitled to advance without liability to home plate.

 

Pretend that F1 balks, R3 tries to score but is tagged out at the plate. Because not all runners and the batter have advanced at least one base, the balk would be enforced and the run scores. (Obviously R1 would go to second as well given this situation.) Whether or not R3 would be out as a result of the INT/MC, the run scores because of the balk, and the MC earns R3 first place in the queue for the showers.

[mstaylor]

 

 

 

Let's say this about F1's next move:

1. F1 delivers somthing that looks more like an infielders throw than a wind up home. (Balk?)

2. F1 after initiating his wind-up with his left foot, then steps off the rubber with his pivot foot in an effort to disengage. (balk)

He takes his rocker step, as long as he comes through and throws it can look like anything, it can be much sped up over what he usually does. If he normally brings his hands up as he pitches, he doesn't have to do that. He just has to keep coming with the pitch.

In the second case you are correct, if starts his rocker step and then steps off with his pivot foot, that's a balk. 

However, when R3 crashed the catcher he earned an ejection. 

[Rich Ives]

 

Texas Manny indicated that in might be INT on the batter, but that's unlikely after he attempted to bunt unless he made some other move that wasn't described.

 

 First was the issue of the QP. Still waiting on the OP's answers, but yes, you can QP from the windup.

 

 

 

If the batter was squared then how in heck could  he be off balance and/or not ready?   No way in hades this is a quicl pitch.

[Texas Manny]

 

 

Texas Manny indicated that in might be INT on the batter, but that's unlikely after he attempted to bunt unless he made some other move that wasn't described.

 

 First was the issue of the QP. Still waiting on the OP's answers, but yes, you can QP from the windup.

 

 

 

If the batter was squared then how in heck could  he be off balance and/or not ready?   No way in hades this is a quicl pitch.

 

Go back to my post in this thread, #2 and you'll see I state the same conclusion and ask for clarification which the OP gave in #11.

[Texas Manny]

To clarify this league's rules regarding MC. The player committing the infraction is ejected and an outouts are awarded if the MC interfered or denied a put out, runners can be put outreset as well just like an interference.

 

Let me put more detail to this picture. F1 (RHP) takes his "rocker" step with his left foot behind the plate. B1, B3 break to advance, B1 squares.

 

Let's say this about F1's next move:

1. F1 delivers somthing that looks more like an infielders throw than a wind up home. (Balk?)

2. F1 after initiating his wind-up with his left foot, then steps off the rubber with his pivot foot in an effort to disengage. (balk)

 

I mentioned it in the OP, this league plays by OBR rules (with a couple of tweeks) so balks are a delayed dead ball infraction. 

 

Dont leave me hanging guys

 

F1's next move:

 

First Scenario:

 

1. F1 delivers somthing that looks more like an infielders throw than a wind up home.

 

A) No Balk;

 

F2 has to move througharound B1 to get up the 3rd base line...

 

Umpires judgment:

 

B) Interference on the batter, 6.06C / 7.08G, Batter is out on strikes/foul tip for second out. R3 declared out for batter's interference. Three outs, inning is over.

 

     -or-

 

    No interference called, play continues. Two outs as of now.

 

 

C) Malious Contact (only if no interference part B): Mechanic: "Time! (point to the contact or R3) That's malicious. He's out. He's gone!"   R3 declared out for MC and is ejected. Three outs, inning is over.

 

 

 

 

Second Scenario:

 

2. F1 after initiating his wind-up with his left foot, then steps off the rubber with his pivot foot in an effort to disengage.

 

A) Rule 8.05(A).The pitcher, while touching his plate, makes any motion naturally associated with his pitch and fails to make such delivery is a balk. Mechanic: (Point to the pitcher) "That's a balk!" Then: "Time! (Point to appropriate runner) "You (R3), score." "You (R1), second base."

 

Everything else is inconsequential.

[Jocko]

:clap: :clap:

[noumpere]

No balk in scenario 1 ("infielders throw") as long as it included a step toward home with the non-pivot foot and the pivot foot stayed mostly engaged (I know it sometimes comes up before the ball is released and that is not what I am talking about).

 

Even if there is BI then you can still have MC and an ejection after three outs.

 

In scenario 2 (step off with pivot) then its a balk and since that's a separate move it will now be an immediate dead ball.  Again though, you might get MC (but you wont get the rest of the play no matter what)

[Texas Manny]

No balk in scenario 1 ("infielders throw") as long as it included a step toward home with the non-pivot foot and the pivot foot stayed mostly engaged (I know it sometimes comes up before the ball is released and that is not what I am talking about).

 

Even if there is BI then you can still have MC and an ejection after three outs.

 

In scenario 2 (step off with pivot) then its a balk and since that's a separate move it will now be an immediate dead ball.  Again though, you might get MC (but you wont get the rest of the play no matter what)

 If a pitcher balks, and it is called, and the pitcher doesn't do anything else, it's "Time, You (R3) score. You (R1), second base. Nothing else could of happened.

[noumpere]

You can have the ejection portion of MC if R3 doesn't stop after the balk call.

[Texas Manny]

You can have the ejection portion of MC if R3 doesn't stop after the balk call.

Why would you? OP changed the scenario completely. The pitcher never delivered the ball, so how is all that non-sense going to happen when the umpires should be declaring "Time!" and awarding bases. The MC would not happen.

[noumpere]

I've had MC on a dead ball (yes, after a balk -- the players kept "playing" even though we tried to stop them)

[Texas Manny]

I've had MC on a dead ball (yes, after a balk -- the players kept "playing" even though we tried to stop them)

Then I'm sorry to say, that it appears you and your partner lost control of that play, because there should have been nothing. The plate umpire should have come out from around the plate while calling "Time!", while the base umpire was doing the same, and whoever called the balk should have been awarding bases AFTER they stopped all play.

 

I'm saying this with sincerity and no malice. You and your partners should have done anything possible to stop the play.

[noumpere]

See HS cases 3-3-1 Situation Y and 9-1-1 Situation M (b) for examples of MC on a home run.

 

Believe me all the umpires involved have spent many a moment wondering if there was more we could have done to stop the play.  No one was awarding any bases yet.  We were all moving around waving our arms calling time.

[Texas Manny]

Then you did everything you could and are to be applauded. The rest just boils down to players not paying attention. Good job!