Questionable Balk Call - Opinions

[Guest Coach Joe]

Hey Guys,

 

Need a little help here.  Had a tough call go against us in the Championship Game at Ripken Aberdeen and need some opinions, I'm having a tough time seeing it.

 

It was a 12u game, Championship Final of a 17 team weekend tournament.  4-4 Tie, Bottom of the 6th, One Out.  Winning Run on 3rd.  Notified HP umpire of intent to walk batters to set up force at home or DP.

 

On 3rd pitch to walk batter, Base Umpire Calls a Balk.

 

In my (all be it somewhat slighted) view the pitcher came set to the same high position before throwing the pitch.  May have been a millisecond faster on this pitch but clearly no intent to deceive the runner or batter.  Neither clearly had intentions of swinging or advancing on the pitch.

 

Here is the link to video on YouTube.  

[mstaylor]

Looks like the catcher started out of the catcher's box before the pitches were released. Does he not have to stay in the catcher's box until the pitch is released then jump out to make the catch?

Technically by rule, yes he has to wait. By interp, he only has to wait for the beginning of the motion. 

[Guest Joe]

Joe, I’m sure you didn’t exactly get the response you had hoped for. For the record, if we hadn’t seen a balk, there’d have been a bunch of us out here letting you know that the crew blew the call. But, there was a balk (actually, two), and the Umpire called it. “Questionable� Not from what I saw.

I’m afraid your, “yeah, OK, it was, but….†Theory doesn’t hold much water either. You start by telling us the size of the tournament, that it was a Championship Game, and apparently thought it was important enough to put it on U-tube. You can’t then fall back to telling us it was “only 12’s, they’re still learning, etc…†We don’t have the ability to teach fundamentals to your pitchers: it’s your function as Coach. After the first “blow-byâ€, I would have expected you to either ask for time, and quietly instruct the pitcher to stop, or, at least holler at him from the dugout. You (apparently) didn’t do your job, and the BU did his. One way or the other, I hope he learned that he needed to stop even on a IBB, and not that the Umpire cost them the game.

I wasn’t the Umpire out there, and I won’t begin to try and guess his mind-set: apparently he was paying attention, as he noticed the balk. I can think of a scenario where, after the second pitch, he was thinking to himself, “Oh shoot, pal, please come to a stopâ€, and, after he blew through it again, just had to call it. But, from what you’re hearing from us is this: we’re much more comfortable telling you “well, it was a balk so we called itâ€, than telling the other Coach, “Well, yeah it was a balk, but they’re just kids, and well, y’know…â€

Oh, and as an aside, we have an extremely short fuse when it comes to Assistant Coaches: we’re used to High School and College AC’s who have a tendency to say things that are Galactically Stupid. Now you know why….

 

Joe, I’m sure you didn’t exactly get the response you had hoped for. For the record, if we hadn’t seen a balk, there’d have been a bunch of us out here letting you know that the crew blew the call. But, there was a balk (actually, two), and the Umpire called it. “Questionable� Not from what I saw.

I’m afraid your, “yeah, OK, it was, but….†Theory doesn’t hold much water either. You start by telling us the size of the tournament, that it was a Championship Game, and apparently thought it was important enough to put it on U-tube. You can’t then fall back to telling us it was “only 12’s, they’re still learning, etc…†We don’t have the ability to teach fundamentals to your pitchers: it’s your function as Coach. After the first “blow-byâ€, I would have expected you to either ask for time, and quietly instruct the pitcher to stop, or, at least holler at him from the dugout. You (apparently) didn’t do your job, and the BU did his. One way or the other, I hope he learned that he needed to stop even on a IBB, and not that the Umpire cost them the game.

I wasn’t the Umpire out there, and I won’t begin to try and guess his mind-set: apparently he was paying attention, as he noticed the balk. I can think of a scenario where, after the second pitch, he was thinking to himself, “Oh shoot, pal, please come to a stopâ€, and, after he blew through it again, just had to call it. But, from what you’re hearing from us is this: we’re much more comfortable telling you “well, it was a balk so we called itâ€, than telling the other Coach, “Well, yeah it was a balk, but they’re just kids, and well, y’know…â€

Oh, and as an aside, we have an extremely short fuse when it comes to Assistant Coaches: we’re used to High School and College AC’s who have a tendency to say things that are Galactically Stupid. Now you know why….

JJB - Was not looking for any specific response, just a frank discussion.  I think I have gotten that and appreciate it, thanks.

 

Actually the discussion has pretty much reaffirmed my thoughts, it was a tough call that not all of you guys would have made.  Even if it was a balk by the book, which I'm not sure from this camera shot its open to some interpretation.   Clearly you guys feel the situation and how it is handled is open to some individual disgression on wether to call a balk right away, tell him to slow down between pitches, etc.  I've been the recipient of a few "warnings" in passing between innings of "tell your guy to slow down a little" over the years.

 

Someone asked if the other side was chirping for a balk, no they were as surprised as we were.

 

I just think the timing and situation of the call really make it tough to stomach.  I only saw one other balk called in our total of 5 games (30 innings).  There was plenty of slight shoulder turns towards first, double stops, etc. that could have been called all weekend.  (not by this specific crew).  To have a final game end on a balk call that was pretty marginal (due to the situation) was tough.  And when I say marginal, I again go back to intent.  No runner in play, no consideration of a pickoff, just tossing 4 balls to the batter to put him on.

 

One more thought as a coach, when i first watched the tape, my initial reaction was "We were pretty close to balking due to the catcher being out of position before the pitch"...lol

[Stan W.]

Guys follow me on this one, and this isnt totally in response to the OP, but years ago I was in a similar situation......I have 2 examples based on the situation and responses.....

 

Low level game, low level of play.........I saw a balk.....Ilet it go, no comments or complaints.....at the inning half, the coach of the offensive team asks me if I saw that balk.........I wont lie, I said I did....but didnt feel it was too agregious ..... he said fine, but could I let him know what other rules i was going to ignore  today............

 

Partner in a playoff game did exactly what some advise.... he gave a quiet, instructional "gimme a pause".....but the offensive coach heard it..........and went ballistic.........'since when can an umpire coach an opposing team to avoid a rule violation?"...........you can magine that didnt end well, and it ended with a coach ejection........deserved for what he said, but not for his initial point.....

 

That really struck me...........we cant pick and choose......we cant coach.......both team deserve the results of the rules.........good or bad....... I see a balk, I call a balk.......even if its in the tough sitatuion......

[JaxRolo]

WOW It was a  Balk! But should it have been called? I think yes.

 

1. If they are trying to load the bases then why is F1 pitching from the set. Go to the windup and it would not ever happened.

2. If you don't call it and the team ends up not scoring then the other team scores and wins on their half of the inning then is it fair???

3. it is not like close call that the umpire wasn't sure. It was very obvious.

[scrounge]

Guys follow me on this one, and this isnt totally in response to the OP, but years ago I was in a similar situation......I have 2 examples based on the situation and responses.....

 

Low level game, low level of play.........I saw a balk.....Ilet it go, no comments or complaints.....at the inning half, the coach of the offensive team asks me if I saw that balk.........I wont lie, I said I did....but didnt feel it was too agregious ..... he said fine, but could I let him know what other rules i was going to ignore  today............

 

Partner in a playoff game did exactly what some advise.... he gave a quiet, instructional "gimme a pause".....but the offensive coach heard it..........and went ballistic.........'since when can an umpire coach an opposing team to avoid a rule violation?"...........you can magine that didnt end well, and it ended with a coach ejection........deserved for what he said, but not for his initial point.....

 

That really struck me...........we cant pick and choose......we cant coach.......both team deserve the results of the rules.........good or bad....... I see a balk, I call a balk.......even if its in the tough sitatuion......

 

A better way of phrasing the 'warning' is to say "make sure you pause, that was VERY close". You accomplish the exact same thing and if you're called on it, you can tell them - completely honestly - that I didn't ignore any violation, he came close to the line but didn't cross it and I'd do the same for your pitcher.

[JaxRolo]

 

Guys follow me on this one, and this isnt totally in response to the OP, but years ago I was in a similar situation......I have 2 examples based on the situation and responses.....

 

Low level game, low level of play.........I saw a balk.....Ilet it go, no comments or complaints.....at the inning half, the coach of the offensive team asks me if I saw that balk.........I wont lie, I said I did....but didnt feel it was too agregious ..... he said fine, but could I let him know what other rules i was going to ignore  today............

 

Partner in a playoff game did exactly what some advise.... he gave a quiet, instructional "gimme a pause".....but the offensive coach heard it..........and went ballistic.........'since when can an umpire coach an opposing team to avoid a rule violation?"...........you can magine that didnt end well, and it ended with a coach ejection........deserved for what he said, but not for his initial point.....

 

That really struck me...........we cant pick and choose......we cant coach.......both team deserve the results of the rules.........good or bad....... I see a balk, I call a balk.......even if its in the tough sitatuion......

 

A better way of phrasing the 'warning' is to say "make sure you pause, that was VERY close". You accomplish the exact same thing and if you're called on it, you can tell them - completely honestly - that I didn't ignore any violation, he came close to the line but didn't cross it and I'd do the same for your pitcher.

 

 

That is still coaching. Don't do it. Just call the balk. Maybe they will learn.

[Guest Joe]

 

WOW It was a  Balk! But should it have been called? I think yes.

 

1. If they are trying to load the bases then why is F1 pitching from the set. Go to the windup and it would not ever happened.

2. If you don't call it and the team ends up not scoring then the other team scores and wins on their half of the inning then is it fair???

3. it is not like close call that the umpire wasn't sure. It was very obvious

 

Thanks Jax.

 

1. A good 3rd base coach would steal on first motion from the windup and make it easily.  That would have been bad coaching. (Even worse than not reminding your pitcher to pause... )

2. I would have liked to seen the boys decide the game based on "positive actions".  If I were on the other side, I'd take it as an empty victory.  Much rather have one of their boys be a hero with a winning hit or great at bat.  In this situation there is no hero or mvp, only a goat in the pitcher that balked.

3. I don't know about obvious...I watched Kyle Kendrick IBB two mets last night with a runner on 3rd.  His "stop" was about the same.

[Stan W.]

 

Guys follow me on this one, and this isnt totally in response to the OP, but years ago I was in a similar situation......I have 2 examples based on the situation and responses.....

 

Low level game, low level of play.........I saw a balk.....Ilet it go, no comments or complaints.....at the inning half, the coach of the offensive team asks me if I saw that balk.........I wont lie, I said I did....but didnt feel it was too agregious ..... he said fine, but could I let him know what other rules i was going to ignore  today............

 

Partner in a playoff game did exactly what some advise.... he gave a quiet, instructional "gimme a pause".....but the offensive coach heard it..........and went ballistic.........'since when can an umpire coach an opposing team to avoid a rule violation?"...........you can magine that didnt end well, and it ended with a coach ejection........deserved for what he said, but not for his initial point.....

 

That really struck me...........we cant pick and choose......we cant coach.......both team deserve the results of the rules.........good or bad....... I see a balk, I call a balk.......even if its in the tough sitatuion......

 

A better way of phrasing the 'warning' is to say "make sure you pause, that was VERY close". You accomplish the exact same thing and if you're called on it, you can tell them - completely honestly - that I didn't ignore any violation, he came close to the line but didn't cross it and I'd do the same for your pitcher.

 

 

If the balk I saw was a maybe, I can see your point...........but if im being honest, as I was then...I saw the balk.........

[JaxRolo]

 

 

WOW It was a  Balk! But should it have been called? I think yes.

 

1. If they are trying to load the bases then why is F1 pitching from the set. Go to the windup and it would not ever happened.

2. If you don't call it and the team ends up not scoring then the other team scores and wins on their half of the inning then is it fair???

3. it is not like close call that the umpire wasn't sure. It was very obvious

 

Thanks Jax.

 

1. A good 3rd base coach would steal on first motion from the windup and make it easily.  That would have been bad coaching. (Even worse than not reminding your pitcher to pause... )

2. I would have liked to seen the boys decide the game based on "positive actions".  If I were on the other side, I'd take it as an empty victory.  Much rather have one of their boys be a hero with a winning hit or great at bat.  In this situation there is no hero or mvp, only a goat in the pitcher that balked.

3. I don't know about obvious...I watched Kyle Kendrick IBB two mets last night with a runner on 3rd.  His "stop" was about the same.

 

I can can see your points as a coach.

 

but on 1. Did it matter if they stole? Trying to load the bases anyway!

2. Empty victory? What about everything else you did during the game to get to this point to have a chance to win?

3. I guess to me it was obvious but it is a judgement call.

[Guest Joe]

 

 

That is still coaching. Don't do it. Just call the balk. Maybe they will learn.

Jax - That's the kind of attitude that makes coaches and parents hold some of you guys in such low regard.  Call a balk to end the game and turn the pitcher into a balling mess, that will teach him an F'n life lesson.  Most of you guys are great and like us coaches are there for the kids, but Christ some of you guys just don't get it.    

[Guest Joe]

 

 

 

WOW It was a  Balk! But should it have been called? I think yes.

 

1. If they are trying to load the bases then why is F1 pitching from the set. Go to the windup and it would not ever happened.

2. If you don't call it and the team ends up not scoring then the other team scores and wins on their half of the inning then is it fair???

3. it is not like close call that the umpire wasn't sure. It was very obvious

 

Thanks Jax.

 

1. A good 3rd base coach would steal on first motion from the windup and make it easily.  That would have been bad coaching. (Even worse than not reminding your pitcher to pause... )

2. I would have liked to seen the boys decide the game based on "positive actions".  If I were on the other side, I'd take it as an empty victory.  Much rather have one of their boys be a hero with a winning hit or great at bat.  In this situation there is no hero or mvp, only a goat in the pitcher that balked.

3. I don't know about obvious...I watched Kyle Kendrick IBB two mets last night with a runner on 3rd.  His "stop" was about the same.

 

I can can see your points as a coach.

 

but on 1. Did it matter if they stole? Trying to load the bases anyway!

2. Empty victory? What about everything else you did during the game to get to this point to have a chance to win?

3. I guess to me it was obvious but it is a judgement call.

 

 

 

 

 

WOW It was a  Balk! But should it have been called? I think yes.

 

1. If they are trying to load the bases then why is F1 pitching from the set. Go to the windup and it would not ever happened.

2. If you don't call it and the team ends up not scoring then the other team scores and wins on their half of the inning then is it fair???

3. it is not like close call that the umpire wasn't sure. It was very obvious

 

Thanks Jax.

 

1. A good 3rd base coach would steal on first motion from the windup and make it easily.  That would have been bad coaching. (Even worse than not reminding your pitcher to pause... )

2. I would have liked to seen the boys decide the game based on "positive actions".  If I were on the other side, I'd take it as an empty victory.  Much rather have one of their boys be a hero with a winning hit or great at bat.  In this situation there is no hero or mvp, only a goat in the pitcher that balked.

3. I don't know about obvious...I watched Kyle Kendrick IBB two mets last night with a runner on 3rd.  His "stop" was about the same.

 

I can can see your points as a coach.

 

but on 1. Did it matter if they stole? Trying to load the bases anyway!

2. Empty victory? What about everything else you did during the game to get to this point to have a chance to win?

3. I guess to me it was obvious but it is a judgement call.

 

1. Talking the guy on 3rd stealing home.  Game over.

2.  Yeah I know

3. Agreed.

[JaxRolo]

 

 

 

That is still coaching. Don't do it. Just call the balk. Maybe they will learn.

Jax - That's the kind of attitude that makes coaches and parents hold some of you guys in such low regard.  Call a balk to end the game and turn the pitcher into a balling mess, that will teach him an F'n life lesson.  Most of you guys are great and like us coaches are there for the kids, but Christ some of you guys just don't get it.    

 

So you would be ok with an Umpire coaching your opponents players?

[mstaylor]

I have found that by calling balks they learn, warning them does nothing. I found this true both as a coach and an umpire. When I coached I explained where they were balking but their "pro pitching coach" disagreed so I insisted the umpires balk them when they saw them. All of my pitchers except one became good varsity and college pitchers. The one that didn't is now in jail for carrying weight, so it was for being stupid not lack of talent. 

[mstaylor]

Coach Joe, try joining the board officially. A coach reading why umpires do what they do and learning the nuances of the rules will make you a better coach. We have a few coaches here but a few more couldn't hurt. Just be aware you will get some knocks because you are a coach.

[Guest Joe]

I'm a little more open on the "coaching" thing.  Normally as part of the plate meeting the topic of balks comes up.  Warnings, etc.  In most cases the umpires state they intend on being somewhat lienient on balks.  Normally I follow that up with telling both umpires that I am ok with them talking to either pitcher if there is something they are doing that is questionable.  Never have I had the other coach object.  I don't remember this plate meeting being that indepth, it was each teams 3rd game of the day.

 

As a coach the only time I want to see a balk called (for or against us) is if a pitcher is deliberately trying to decieve the runner to prevent a steal or pickoff.

 

In my opinion that is how the balk rule should be applied to 11/12 youth baseball.  

[Thunderheads]

Coach Joe, try joining the board officially. A coach reading why umpires do what they do and learning the nuances of the rules will make you a better coach. We have a few coaches here but a few more couldn't hurt. Just be aware you will get some knocks because you are a coach.

I couldn't agree more with mstaylor here, .... Join us Joe, and tell your assistant Kevin to do the same, ....it can't hurt and trust me, ...it'll make everyone better! I promise!

[scrounge]

 

 

Guys follow me on this one, and this isnt totally in response to the OP, but years ago I was in a similar situation......I have 2 examples based on the situation and responses.....

 

Low level game, low level of play.........I saw a balk.....Ilet it go, no comments or complaints.....at the inning half, the coach of the offensive team asks me if I saw that balk.........I wont lie, I said I did....but didnt feel it was too agregious ..... he said fine, but could I let him know what other rules i was going to ignore  today............

 

Partner in a playoff game did exactly what some advise.... he gave a quiet, instructional "gimme a pause".....but the offensive coach heard it..........and went ballistic.........'since when can an umpire coach an opposing team to avoid a rule violation?"...........you can magine that didnt end well, and it ended with a coach ejection........deserved for what he said, but not for his initial point.....

 

That really struck me...........we cant pick and choose......we cant coach.......both team deserve the results of the rules.........good or bad....... I see a balk, I call a balk.......even if its in the tough sitatuion......

 

A better way of phrasing the 'warning' is to say "make sure you pause, that was VERY close". You accomplish the exact same thing and if you're called on it, you can tell them - completely honestly - that I didn't ignore any violation, he came close to the line but didn't cross it and I'd do the same for your pitcher.

 

 

That is still coaching. Don't do it. Just call the balk. Maybe they will learn.

 

 

I disagree, I think there's a legitimate place for preventive officiating like this. At a high-level tournament or post-season setting, less so, but in a run of the mill school game or regular season, I think it's fine, but it has to be limited and ideally done EARLY in the game. Late and close, it's too late.

[Coach Joe]

Thanks for the invite mstaylor and thunderheads.  I'm in.

[JaxRolo]

 

 

 

Guys follow me on this one, and this isnt totally in response to the OP, but years ago I was in a similar situation......I have 2 examples based on the situation and responses.....

 

Low level game, low level of play.........I saw a balk.....Ilet it go, no comments or complaints.....at the inning half, the coach of the offensive team asks me if I saw that balk.........I wont lie, I said I did....but didnt feel it was too agregious ..... he said fine, but could I let him know what other rules i was going to ignore  today............

 

Partner in a playoff game did exactly what some advise.... he gave a quiet, instructional "gimme a pause".....but the offensive coach heard it..........and went ballistic.........'since when can an umpire coach an opposing team to avoid a rule violation?"...........you can magine that didnt end well, and it ended with a coach ejection........deserved for what he said, but not for his initial point.....

 

That really struck me...........we cant pick and choose......we cant coach.......both team deserve the results of the rules.........good or bad....... I see a balk, I call a balk.......even if its in the tough sitatuion......

 

A better way of phrasing the 'warning' is to say "make sure you pause, that was VERY close". You accomplish the exact same thing and if you're called on it, you can tell them - completely honestly - that I didn't ignore any violation, he came close to the line but didn't cross it and I'd do the same for your pitcher.

 

 

That is still coaching. Don't do it. Just call the balk. Maybe they will learn.

 

 

I disagree, I think there's a legitimate place for preventive officiating like this. At a high-level tournament or post-season setting, less so, but in a run of the mill school game or regular season, I think it's fine, but it has to be limited and ideally done EARLY in the game. Late and close, it's too late.

 

I agree.

[noumpere]

Im going chime back in and say that if the balk had not been called we could very easily have had a post by the other side to the affect of "Look at this video.  The pitcher clearly balks and the umpire didn't call it and just gave a warning.  It cost my kids the game.  i don't care but its for the kids.  They played hard and it was the third game of the day."

[Coach Joe]

Im going chime back in and say that if the balk had not been called we could very easily have had a post by the other side to the affect of "Look at this video.  The pitcher clearly balks and the umpire didn't call it and just gave a warning.  It cost my kids the game.  i don't care but its for the kids.  They played hard and it was the third game of the day."

 

 

 

You could make this argument about every call in a game.  Ball/Strike, Fair/Foul, Safe/Out.

 

The call was made, not a single person in the facility was anticipating a Balk Call except the BU.  No way the other team would argue for a balk on an IBB.

 

Anyone want me to post the video of the phantom triple play that went our way in the previous inning?  We could have a field day beating that one to death...lol

[mstaylor]

Sure, we love video.

[Coach Joe]

Ok here you go.  

[jjb]

We've got 2 different Divisions in our League: a Recreational League and a Competitive League. Our BOD decided that, in our Rec League, below age 11 (ahem), we wouldn't call balks. The result? Coaches no longer teach proper pitching mechanics at that level. Our 11 Rec Coaches spend a lot of time breaking bad habits.

You are an apparent 12 Competitive Baseball Team, playing in a Competitive Championship game. At that age and level, your pitchers should know the mechanics of delivering a pitch. Sorry, I've got to call the balk here. I'll wait for the lower-level, lower impact game to brush the pitchers' plate off....

And it appears the catcher doesn't leave the box until the pitcher begins his motion. i've got nothing here...

[jjb]

OK, your video looks like a basic "2 men occupying a base" here. We've got a tag of the bag at 3rd for out #1, and, for some ungodly reason, R1 retreats to 1st. So, when R1 is tagged, we've got out #2: doesn't matter what he's standing on, he's forced.

Since you've got three outs and three runners (including the BR), now you've got to get the BR out. You say the Umpires' explanation was that "the runner" (I assume the BR) left the bag. However, at he .24 mark, you see the PU throw up his hands. He's just called "Time", and nothing can happen after that. So, I've got only 2 outs here.

BTW, the BU looks like the original BU in your OP. In this instance, he's clearly got his head up his a^^. I've seen potted plants move more...