4th out !

[maven]

My question is how long  do you give them to appeal.   since it was the 3rd out the defense rushed off the field.

Good question. It's in the rules. And it varies by rule set. See OBR 7.10 (after d), and NFHS 8-5-2 PENALTY.

[Larry in TN]

This is a perfect example of why all rule study has to start by reading and understanding 2.00.

 

You're definitely right about that and I just recently figured that out!

 

You might remember my thread from a month or two ago about the application of an interference call at a LL Junior District tournament.  If I had thought to go to the definition of interference is 2.00 I could have given the PU and TD the information that they needed (ball is dead).  

[noumpere]

 

My question is how long  do you give them to appeal.   since it was the 3rd out the defense rushed off the field.

Good question. It's in the rules. And it varies by rule set. See OBR 7.10 (after d), and NFHS 8-5-2 PENALTY.

 

The only significant difference I think is that in HS you do not lose the right to an appeal if the offense initiates a play while in pro you do.

 

Both have the right to appeal lost if pitcher and infielders leave fair territory, or pitch (HS adds "legal or illegal" and "intentional walk").  In HS, it also must be done before the umpires leave the field at the end of the game -- but an appeal is usually going to be pretty immediate in that case so I don't think this difference will really come into play.

[maven]

The only significant difference I think is that in HS you do not lose the right to an appeal if the offense initiates a play while in pro you do.

 

Both have the right to appeal lost if pitcher and infielders leave fair territory, or pitch (HS adds "legal or illegal" and "intentional walk").  In HS, it also must be done before the umpires leave the field at the end of the game -- but an appeal is usually going to be pretty immediate in that case so I don't think this difference will really come into play.

OBR: "defensive team" leaves the field. 7.10

 

FED: infielders leave the field (window of opportunity closes sooner)

 

Agree that it's not likely to come into play. The difference you mention — in FED the offense initiating a play does not cost the defense the right to appeal — is usually the more significant.

[noumpere]

 

The only significant difference I think is that in HS you do not lose the right to an appeal if the offense initiates a play while in pro you do.

 

Both have the right to appeal lost if pitcher and infielders leave fair territory, or pitch (HS adds "legal or illegal" and "intentional walk").  In HS, it also must be done before the umpires leave the field at the end of the game -- but an appeal is usually going to be pretty immediate in that case so I don't think this difference will really come into play.

OBR: "defensive team" leaves the field. 7.10

 

FED: infielders leave the field (window of opportunity closes sooner)

 

Agree that it's not likely to come into play. The difference you mention — in FED the offense initiating a play does not cost the defense the right to appeal — is usually the more significant.

 

From 7.10:

For the purpose of this rule, the defensive

team has “left the field†when the pitcher and all infielders have left fair territory on

their way to the bench or clubhouse.

 

with my emphasis

[maven]

From 7.10:

For the purpose of this rule, the defensive

team has “left the field†when the pitcher and all infielders have left fair territory on

their way to the bench or clubhouse.

 

with my emphasis

Right you are. Note to self: read the whole rule.

[umpire_scott]

umpire_scott,

 

So, if I understand you correctly, you're saying you've never read the rule book?

 

JM

 

No I'm saying I don't remember every single sentence and aspect of the rule book.  I have read the FED rule book all the way through, but that was many years ago and then I went several years where I did not umpire.  Since I've started umpiring again, I looked at both the OBR rule book and FED rule book for reference.

[SoCal Lurker]

 

 

Tony

So I think given that both coaches and your partner thought the run shouldn't count don't you think this would apply as one of those often misunderstood rules?

 

I think it's on every list of rules myths I've ever seen, e.g., no 23 here:

 

 http://baseball-rules.com/myths.htm

[BigUmp56]

I had almost the same scenerio a couple of years ago. R3, R1 1 out. Fly ball to right field is caught R1 takes off early, R3 tags up, ball thrown home pitcher cuts it off and throws to 1st doubling R1 off. I said run counts DC argues that run should not count due to double play. OC comes over and says "Tony I don't think the run counts" I said emphatically "RUN COUNTS" To top it off partner then comes in says he doesn't think run should count. I then got really ticked off and gave it my all "RUN COUNTS, LETS PLAY BALL". Some guy behind the backstop chirps the whole rest of the game about it.

After the game I went to my truck to change and he came over. He wasn't threatening just wanted to tell meI should learn the rules. I took my casebook out of my equipment bag and the exact scenerio was in there. After he read it he said "HUH when did they change that rule?" I said "1910" got in my truck and drove away.

 

Tony

 

So I think given that both coaches and your partner thought the run shouldn't count don't you think this would apply as one of those often misunderstood rules?  In that vein would it possibly have not been better to say "this is a misunderstood rule, but trust me I am 100% certain I'm correct in my ruling, and would be happy to show you if you take the time to look it up.", or some other reply other than simply reiterating "run counts".  That does not imply that you know the rule but rather that you don't like being questioned.

He handled the situation just fine. There's never a good reason to offer to show someone a rule. It holds up the game unnecessarily. Just tell them that you've made your call and that they need to return to the dugout. You can give your partner a rules clinic in the parking lot.

Tim

[umpire_scott]

 

 

I had almost the same scenerio a couple of years ago. R3, R1 1 out. Fly ball to right field is caught R1 takes off early, R3 tags up, ball thrown home pitcher cuts it off and throws to 1st doubling R1 off. I said run counts DC argues that run should not count due to double play. OC comes over and says "Tony I don't think the run counts" I said emphatically "RUN COUNTS" To top it off partner then comes in says he doesn't think run should count. I then got really ticked off and gave it my all "RUN COUNTS, LETS PLAY BALL". Some guy behind the backstop chirps the whole rest of the game about it.

After the game I went to my truck to change and he came over. He wasn't threatening just wanted to tell meI should learn the rules. I took my casebook out of my equipment bag and the exact scenerio was in there. After he read it he said "HUH when did they change that rule?" I said "1910" got in my truck and drove away.

 

Tony

 

So I think given that both coaches and your partner thought the run shouldn't count don't you think this would apply as one of those often misunderstood rules?  In that vein would it possibly have not been better to say "this is a misunderstood rule, but trust me I am 100% certain I'm correct in my ruling, and would be happy to show you if you take the time to look it up.", or some other reply other than simply reiterating "run counts".  That does not imply that you know the rule but rather that you don't like being questioned.

He handled the situation just fine. There's never a good reason to offer to show someone a rule. It holds up the game unnecessarily. Just tell them that you've made your call and that they need to return to the dugout. You can give your partner a rules clinic in the parking lot.

Tim

 

 

I agree that it probably would be wrong to offer the rule book idea.  I still think it would have been a better to acknowledge that it's a common misconception.  Not that I think Tony did anything wrong, I just think that this goes back to one your other posts Tim where you talked about umpires being unreasonably difficult.  Like I said I would not classify what Tony as anywhere near chucking three OF's for not hustling, but a simple acknowledgement that this is a common misconception could instill confidence in your call to the coach.

[BigUmp56]

I agree with you then. I don't see a problem with letting them know that they're incorrectly understanding one of most commonly misunderstood rules of the game.

Tim

[mstaylor]

I have many times told a coach the ruling only to have him quote a myth back to me. I will say I understand what he thinks but it is a baseball misnomer, it is actually what I just explained. 

[oswalmar]

Hi! I have a doubt:

If 3rd out is made on appeal play (R1 or R2 on 2nd base), can the defense team - after this appeal - choice another appeal play to look a 4th out and void the run (R3 on 3rd base)?

[Lala]

It's conversations like these that make me love this website. Carry on...

[Replacematt]

Hi! I have a doubt:

If 3rd out is made on appeal play (R1 or R2 on 2nd base), can the defense team - after this appeal - choice another appeal play to look a 4th out and void the run (R3 on 3rd base)?

Si. Reglas Oficiales de Béisbol 7.10d: "Las jugadas de apelación pueden requerir que el árbitro reconozca un aparente “cuarto outâ€. Si el tercer out se realiza durante una jugada en la cual una jugada de apelación es sustentada sobre otro corredor, la decisión de la jugada de apelación toma precedencia al determinar el out. Si hay más de una apelación durante una jugada que finaliza la mitad de una entrada, la defensa puede elegir el aceptar el out que más le beneficie."

[oswalmar]

Gracias Matt!, thanks Matt!

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[Replacematt]

Gracias Matt!, thanks Matt!

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Es un placer.

[UmpJM]

Estoy de acuerdo con Matt.

 

JM

[ricka56]

GA: Tish, that's french. you know that drives wild...what? spanish ? nevermind