4th out !

[guyinaredhat]

This happened to me this weekend . First time I ever saw it and I nailed it stone cold .

Bases loaded 1 out , batter hits a line drive to the gap and runners take off on contact. Cf makes a diving catch . Everyone left early , r3 scores r2 is on 3rd and r1 gets halfway when he goes back to 1st. Throw from the cf goes to 2nd.

Whatcha got

[grayhawk]

Count R3's run.  R2 out on appeal for the third out.  Inning over.  Now, if they throw to third to appeal R3's failure to re-touch, get the 4th out on R3 and cancel the run.

[Replacematt]

End of the inning with one run scoring.

[maven]

End of the inning with one run scoring.

 

Agree, assuming the umpire judged that the "throw to 2nd" was a retouch appeal of R2 and granted the appeal.

[guyinaredhat]

DT Coach went nuts. I thought I was gonna ej cause he kept on and on about it being a force out to end the inning . I also thought he was gonna protest , but he could t find the 100 cash quick enough .

[stl_ump]

Did anyone ask him to explain where he thought the force was?

 

That would have been pretty fuuny.

Ump - "Where's the force?"

Coach - "At second"

Ump - "Who was forced to run"

Coach - "Ahh.. Ahhhh."

[grayhawk]

DT Coach went nuts. I thought I was gonna ej cause he kept on and on about it being a force out to end the inning . I also thought he was gonna protest , but he could t find the 100 cash quick enough .

 

So they never even thought of throwing to third to appeal R3 not re-touching?

[umpire_scott]

 

End of the inning with one run scoring.

 

Agree, assuming the umpire judged that the "throw to 2nd" was a retouch appeal of R2 and granted the appeal.

 

 

So would it be different if R2 was scurrying back to second base and therfore it was not an appeal but rather doubling up the runner?

[noumpere]

 

 

End of the inning with one run scoring.

 

Agree, assuming the umpire judged that the "throw to 2nd" was a retouch appeal of R2 and granted the appeal.

 

 

So would it be different if R2 was scurrying back to second base and therfore it was not an appeal but rather doubling up the runner?

 

Huh?  What do you think the difference is?  Maybe Im just confused as per usual. lol.

[grayhawk]

 

 

End of the inning with one run scoring.

 

Agree, assuming the umpire judged that the "throw to 2nd" was a retouch appeal of R2 and granted the appeal.

 

 

So would it be different if R2 was scurrying back to second base and therfore it was not an appeal but rather doubling up the runner?

 

 

It's the same thing.

[basejester]

 

So would it be different if R2 was scurrying back to second base and therfore it was not an appeal but rather doubling up the runner?

No, that's also an appeal.

[umpire_scott]

 

So would it be different if R2 was scurrying back to second base and therfore it was not an appeal but rather doubling up the runner?

No, that's also an appeal.

 

 

That's interesting.  I did not think that doubling up a player for leaving early was an appeal.  Obviously they look different in that the doubling up play has no attempt at a tag up, whereas usually the leaving early is a tag-up that is mistimed.  

 

I'm envisioning a play with R1 and R3, and a ball is hit into the gap.  It looks like it's down, so R1 takes off and is rounding second by the time the ball is caught.  He reverses direction and the throw beats him back to the bag at first for the double play.  In the meantime R3 tags properly and trots home.  

I was under the impression that the run would not count.

 

Now that I think about it it makes sense. Glad someone posted before it happened in a game and I kicked it.

[noumpere]

Straight from the comments in rule 4.09.

 

APPROVED RULING: One out, Jones on third, Smith on second. Batter Brown flies out to

center. Two out. Jones scores after catch and Smith scores on bad throw to plate. But Jones, on appeal,

is adjudged to have left third before the catch and is out. Three outs. No runs.

 

 

 

Here is a general statement that covers:

When a runner misses a base and a fielder holds the ball on a missed base, or on the base originally

occupied by the runner if a fly ball is caught, and appeals for the umpire’s decision, the runner

is out when the umpire sustains the appeal; all runners may score if possible, except that with two out

the runner is out at the moment he misses the bag, if an appeal is sustained as applied to the following

runners.

 

APPROVED RULING: One out, Jones on third, Smith on first, and Brown flies out to right

field. Two outs. Jones tags up and scores after the catch. Smith attempted to return to first but the right

fielder’s throw beat him to the base. Three outs. But Jones scored before the throw to catch Smith

reached first base, hence Jones’ run counts. It was not a force play.

[grayhawk]

 

 

So would it be different if R2 was scurrying back to second base and therfore it was not an appeal but rather doubling up the runner?

No, that's also an appeal.

 

 

That's interesting.  I did not think that doubling up a player for leaving early was an appeal.  Obviously they look different in that the doubling up play has no attempt at a tag up, whereas usually the leaving early is a tag-up that is mistimed.  

 

I'm envisioning a play with R1 and R3, and a ball is hit into the gap.  It looks like it's down, so R1 takes off and is rounding second by the time the ball is caught.  He reverses direction and the throw beats him back to the bag at first for the double play.  In the meantime R3 tags properly and trots home.  

I was under the impression that the run would not count.

 

Now that I think about it it makes sense. Glad someone posted before it happened in a game and I kicked it.

 

 

Why were you under that impression?  What did you think prevented the run from scoring?

[Typhoon]

I had almost the same scenerio a couple of years ago. R3, R1 1 out. Fly ball to right field is caught R1 takes off early, R3 tags up, ball thrown home pitcher cuts it off and throws to 1st doubling R1 off. I said run counts DC argues that run should not count due to double play. OC comes over and says "Tony I don't think the run counts" I said emphatically "RUN COUNTS" To top it off partner then comes in says he doesn't think run should count. I then got really ticked off and gave it my all "RUN COUNTS, LETS PLAY BALL". Some guy behind the backstop chirps the whole rest of the game about it.

After the game I went to my truck to change and he came over. He wasn't threatening just wanted to tell meI should learn the rules. I took my casebook out of my equipment bag and the exact scenerio was in there. After he read it he said "HUH when did they change that rule?" I said "1910" got in my truck and drove away.

 

Tony

[grayhawk]

I had almost the same scenerio a couple of years ago. R3, R1 1 out. Fly ball to right field is caught R1 takes off early, R3 tags up, ball thrown home pitcher cuts it off and throws to 1st doubling R1 off. I said run counts DC argues that run should not count due to double play. OC comes over and says "Tony I don't think the run counts" I said emphatically "RUN COUNTS" To top it off partner then comes in says he doesn't think run should count. I then got really ticked off and gave it my all "RUN COUNTS, LETS PLAY BALL". Some guy behind the backstop chirps the whole rest of the game about it.

After the game I went to my truck to change and he came over. He wasn't threatening just wanted to tell meI should learn the rules. I took my casebook out of my equipment bag and the exact scenerio was in there. After he read it he said "HUH when did they change that rule?" I said "1910" got in my truck and drove away.

 

Tony

 

         

[umpire_scott]

 

 

 

So would it be different if R2 was scurrying back to second base and therfore it was not an appeal but rather doubling up the runner?

No, that's also an appeal.

 

 

That's interesting.  I did not think that doubling up a player for leaving early was an appeal.  Obviously they look different in that the doubling up play has no attempt at a tag up, whereas usually the leaving early is a tag-up that is mistimed.  

 

I'm envisioning a play with R1 and R3, and a ball is hit into the gap.  It looks like it's down, so R1 takes off and is rounding second by the time the ball is caught.  He reverses direction and the throw beats him back to the bag at first for the double play.  In the meantime R3 tags properly and trots home.  

I was under the impression that the run would not count.

 

Now that I think about it it makes sense. Glad someone posted before it happened in a game and I kicked it.

 

 

Why were you under that impression?  What did you think prevented the run from scoring?

 

 

I would say probably the same reason the coach was.  I was thinking that it was similar to a force play in that no tag was needed to create the out.

[grayhawk]

 

 

 

 

So would it be different if R2 was scurrying back to second base and therfore it was not an appeal but rather doubling up the runner?

No, that's also an appeal.

 

 

That's interesting.  I did not think that doubling up a player for leaving early was an appeal.  Obviously they look different in that the doubling up play has no attempt at a tag up, whereas usually the leaving early is a tag-up that is mistimed.  

 

I'm envisioning a play with R1 and R3, and a ball is hit into the gap.  It looks like it's down, so R1 takes off and is rounding second by the time the ball is caught.  He reverses direction and the throw beats him back to the bag at first for the double play.  In the meantime R3 tags properly and trots home.  

I was under the impression that the run would not count.

 

Now that I think about it it makes sense. Glad someone posted before it happened in a game and I kicked it.

 

 

Why were you under that impression?  What did you think prevented the run from scoring?

 

 

I would say probably the same reason the coach was.  I was thinking that it was similar to a force play in that no tag was needed to create the out.

 

 

Just remember that it's impossible for there to be a force play on a caught fly ball.

[umpire_scott]

I had almost the same scenerio a couple of years ago. R3, R1 1 out. Fly ball to right field is caught R1 takes off early, R3 tags up, ball thrown home pitcher cuts it off and throws to 1st doubling R1 off. I said run counts DC argues that run should not count due to double play. OC comes over and says "Tony I don't think the run counts" I said emphatically "RUN COUNTS" To top it off partner then comes in says he doesn't think run should count. I then got really ticked off and gave it my all "RUN COUNTS, LETS PLAY BALL". Some guy behind the backstop chirps the whole rest of the game about it.

After the game I went to my truck to change and he came over. He wasn't threatening just wanted to tell meI should learn the rules. I took my casebook out of my equipment bag and the exact scenerio was in there. After he read it he said "HUH when did they change that rule?" I said "1910" got in my truck and drove away.

 

Tony

 

So I think given that both coaches and your partner thought the run shouldn't count don't you think this would apply as one of those often misunderstood rules?  In that vein would it possibly have not been better to say "this is a misunderstood rule, but trust me I am 100% certain I'm correct in my ruling, and would be happy to show you if you take the time to look it up.", or some other reply other than simply reiterating "run counts".  That does not imply that you know the rule but rather that you don't like being questioned.

[Magic]

This happened to me this weekend . First time I ever saw it and I nailed it stone cold .

Bases loaded 1 out , batter hits a line drive to the gap and runners take off on contact. Cf makes a diving catch . Everyone left early , r3 scores r2 is on 3rd and r1 gets halfway when he goes back to 1st. Throw from the cf goes to 2nd.

Whatcha got

And then if he turns and throws to 3rd you have what????

[maven]

I would say probably the same reason the coach was.  I was thinking that it was similar to a force play in that no tag was needed to create the out.

 

You're confusing a TAG with a TAG PLAY.

 

A tag WAS required. In this case, the base was tagged.

 

A force play also requires a tag: either a runner or the base to which he is forced to advance may be tagged.

 

There are lots of ways to retire a runner without tagging him. A strikeout, interference, catch a fly ball, appealing his missed base, to name a few. Are these all similar to a force play?

 

Part of becoming a great umpire is learning to think like one.

[umpire_scott]

 

I would say probably the same reason the coach was.  I was thinking that it was similar to a force play in that no tag was needed to create the out.

 

You're confusing a TAG with a TAG PLAY.

 

A tag WAS required. In this case, the base was tagged.

 

A force play also requires a tag: either a runner or the base to which he is forced to advance may be tagged.

 

There are lots of ways to retire a runner without tagging him. A strikeout, interference, catch a fly ball, appealing his missed base, to name a few. Are these all similar to a force play?

 

Part of becoming a great umpire is learning to think like one.

 

 

Well the confusion is that in some case a tag of the base means nothing.  So in a force play a tag of the base attains an out, and in this case a tag of the base also attains an out.  So my confusion was that I thought since the last out was recorded in a situation where a tag of the base only was required I thought this would prevent the run from scoring.

 

And I agree with you that "thinking like an umpire" definitely helps with interpretations.  I'm not there yet.

[guyinaredhat]

 

This happened to me this weekend . First time I ever saw it and I nailed it stone cold .

Bases loaded 1 out , batter hits a line drive to the gap and runners take off on contact. Cf makes a diving catch . Everyone left early , r3 scores r2 is on 3rd and r1 gets halfway when he goes back to 1st. Throw from the cf goes to 2nd.

Whatcha got

And then if he turns and throws to 3rd you have what????

 

 

 

here's where the 4th out comes in , provided the defense lets the PU know they are appealing the r3 left early , then you bang the 4th out NO RUN NO RUN

 

 

My question is how long  do you give them to appeal.   since it was the 3rd out the defense rushed off the field.    

[mstaylor]

This is a perfect example of why all rule study has to start by reading and understanding 2.00. The definition of a force is there and makes this play much easier to understand. Most guys blow by it because they assume they already know what's in it. <br /><br />Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2<br /><br />

[UmpJM]

umpire_scott,

 

So, if I understand you correctly, you're saying you've never read the rule book?

 

JM