&*%$ Sandwich

[umpire_scott]

So how many helpings of a #$%@ sandwich should an umpire have to eat when they make a mistake?

 

Here is my scenario:

 

As I've stated before I am just starting to do some higher level work.  Prior to this the past 2 years I've strictly done some tournament ball where we were given very little responsibility as far as lineups go.  So I had a junior legion game today and the coaches gave me their lineups at the beginning of the game.  I realized that I had forgotten my pen in my truck.  So I'm just hoping that there are not major significant lineup issues during the game.  In the top of the third inning the HT changed pitchers.  The coach announced it to me and I failed to tell the VT coach.  All the players announced it loudly as it was a new pitcher, so I assumed it was sort of known.  I know that was my mistake.  The coach somehow must not have heard his team and he call time to ask me if they had made a substitute.  So I say yes "9 for 7".  He makes the change in the book and we move on.  Then 2 innings later the HT coach tells me that he's going to change pitchers again with #6 coming in for #9.  As they were batting I waited until he either came to bat or took the mound the next inning.  Well of course he comes up to bat and I don't realize it.  The VT asks and I tell him about the substitution.  So now I feel like an idiot that it's happened twice.  So in the top of the 5th I see a new pitcher take the mound and the HT coach tells me "#23 for #6".  I go over and tell the VT coach.  Then in the bottom of the 5th with the score 9-0 and the HT batting #23 comes to bat and hits a single.  The VT coach says "I have a batting out of order"  So I go talk to the HT coach and he says that #23 came in for #13 not for the pitcher even though he went in to pitch.  I think back and I cannot remember for certain whether he told me wrong or I heard him wrong.  But I took the blame and told the VT coach that I told him the wrong substitute that #23 came into pitch but did not replace the pitcher in the batting order, he actually replaced #13.  At this point the coach explodes on me.  He stars yelling "Are you going to get a single thing right today?".  I told him I was sorry it was my mistake but there is nothing that can be done about it now so let's play ball.  He continues very loudly with "this is ridiculous", "you haven't gotten a single thing right today". etc.  He clearly warranted being ejected, but I was going to give him quite a bit of rope since it was my negligence that created the problem in the first place.  But at some point by allowing him to do this I felt undermined by him and it made me look weak.  He walks back to his dugout and we begin to play, but he's still going.  So I call time, walk over to the dugout and issue him a formal warning.  After that it ends.  I go back to behind the catcher and his catcher says "How embarrassing, you should have thrown him out".  A fan also came up to me and apologized for their coaches behavior.

 

So my question is should I have dumped him or just kept chewing?

[blue23ll]

This was not a 'batting out of order' it was an unannounced substitution.  If in doubt, consult the home score book. Don't become involved in a prolonged discussion with the coach about this, tell him to pipe down and get back in the dugout. I'm not much for 'formal warnings', and you seem to give a lot of rope to a lot of people. Next time, don't forget your pen, and anyway, ask to borrow one and keep an accurate line up card. You will avoid headaches.

[mstaylor]

Even of you feel inclined to give him some rope, once he gets to the dugout and continues, either dump him or tell him enough. If you choose to tell him enough, do it from the plate,do not walk over to the dugout. Anything else, toss him.

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[noumpere]

 

So my question is should I have dumped him or just kept chewing?

If you have to ask, the answer is obvious.

 

Didn't your partner have a pen yo could borrow?

 

and, add it to you "pre-field" check list -- toes, hose, nose, brush, indicator pen.

[HokieUmp]

So my question is should I have dumped him or just kept chewing?

 

Not trying to take a cheap shot, but what I said in the EJ section the other day holds true...

 

When your question starts with "should I have dumped," the answer is at LEAST a 90% chance of being 'yes.'

 

And we've all been there.  I have an EJ that I should have gotten about 4-5 years ago, now, and it still irks me, and I can still remember the details of how it played out.  Normally, I can't remember a good story from a game I work (of course, that might be the effects of the recent knock on the head I mention in yet another post, but who can say?), but I remember that near-EJ with a frightening clarity.

 

With the number of times you've had a chance to toss, and didn't, if it ate at you like it does to me (and I'm sure others), I'm surprised you can sleep at night.  Eff those guys, man - when they have told you and others at your game that they no longer wish to participate in the activity, help them along to their final peace.

[johnnyg08]

Even though you may have messed up, you don't have to take the personal shot.

"that's enough" if it continues, run him.

[SoCal Lurker]

This was not a 'batting out of order' it was an unannounced substitution.  If in doubt, consult the home score book. Don't become involved in a prolonged discussion with the coach about this, tell him to pipe down and get back in the dugout. I'm not much for 'formal warnings', and you seem to give a lot of rope to a lot of people. Next time, don't forget your pen, and anyway, ask to borrow one and keep an accurate line up card. You will avoid headaches.

 

Is it?  Sounds like it was announced, but there was a question of what it was -- as I read it, everyone agrees that #23 came into the game, but if he came in for the pitcher, he is now BOO.

[blue23ll]

The #23 for #6 was a pitching change, however #23 batted in the slot that #13 was in. There was no BOO.

[BuckeyeMike]

To the OP, I feel your pain.  In my association, there is a real weakness in training newer guys about annotating lineup changes....in fact, there's really zero training.  In anything less than Varsity, it's free subs and umps don't keep crap for lineups.  But when all of the sudden you get that V game, you're either supposed to figure out your own way from the written rules, or as i did, ask a seasoned veteran (or 2 or 3 or 4) about how they do it. 

 

You won't forget your pen/pencil again i bet.  lol

 

Don't assume anything when logging the subs.  It sure LOOKS LIKE x is coming in for y, but then you focus on the lineup to make the changes and without you realizing it, x came in for z and y is now pitching.  It's happened to me a couple times.   Make the coach tell you EXACTLY what he is doing when it happens. 

 

Just my 2 cents.  Been there, looked afool, know better now.  Hope this helps.

[BigUmp56]

Scott,

 

Depending on his tone when he asked "are you going to get a single thing right today", I might have dumped him on the spot. If I didn't run him immediately, he's soon going to come to an understanding that he's not going to be allowed to go there again. The second time he said something personal, it's a no brainer for me. He's getting his ticket punched. As a newer umpire to varsity ball you're going to be tested. Eject early and often when they test you like this, and soon you won't have to eject very often at all. They'll know where the line is.

 

Tim.

[ump570]

To me, that's very personal. He's using the word you and telling everyone you're incompetent. Sure, you messed up, but SH*# happens. These guys make bad moves all the time; they have games where they don't get decisions right, but that doesn't give people the right to publicly embarass them. I feel the same is true with us. We may kick calls or forget something important, and if he wants to confront our behavior by saying something like, "That's not right, come on." Even when he said, "This is ridiculous", I wouldn't have cared, but it's the way he came at you with the word "you" that made it ejectable. Just my two cents.

[SoCal Lurker]

The #23 for #6 was a pitching change, however #23 batted in the slot that #13 was in. There was no BOO.

 

I guess I'm not convinced we have enough info, but I'm curious about the details.  Doesn't the coach have to tell the U who is subbing for whom at the time the sub is made?  So if the coach said "23 is in for 6 and __ is in for 13 at the time of the pitching change, that would put 23 in for 6 in the BO, too, and we would have BOO, right?  But if he just made the change to pitcher (and either 13 came out of the game with 6 moving to another position, or two players going into the game at the same time and two going out with no specification as to who was who), then we would have an unannounced sub since the full sub wasn't announced?

 

Does that mean as a sneaky coach, I should do an unannounced double switch, and not tell the U who is in for who, so I can decide later who bats in which slot?  (Unless, of course, the U is paying attention and makes me clarify.) 

[blue23ll]

Coaches have been known to take full advantage of umpires who are inexperienced or unattentive, I know thats hard to believe, but it's true.

 

When I am taking a substitution I always take my line up card out, and while the coach is there looking, I make the changes on my line up. I want him to tell me, "#15 for #1 in the 2 slot", and that's all. If he tells me, "#12 for #1 and nothing else, I always clarify, "this is a field position change only?", meaning no batting order change.

 

Unfortunately in the OP the umpire did not have a pen/pencil so he could not record changes.

[umpire_scott]

 

The #23 for #6 was a pitching change, however #23 batted in the slot that #13 was in. There was no BOO.

 

I guess I'm not convinced we have enough info, but I'm curious about the details.  Doesn't the coach have to tell the U who is subbing for whom at the time the sub is made?  So if the coach said "23 is in for 6 and __ is in for 13 at the time of the pitching change, that would put 23 in for 6 in the BO, too, and we would have BOO, right?  But if he just made the change to pitcher (and either 13 came out of the game with 6 moving to another position, or two players going into the game at the same time and two going out with no specification as to who was who), then we would have an unannounced sub since the full sub wasn't announced?

 

Does that mean as a sneaky coach, I should do an unannounced double switch, and not tell the U who is in for who, so I can decide later who bats in which slot?  (Unless, of course, the U is paying attention and makes me clarify.) 

 

 

Yes coaches can be sneaky about it or they can also be careless.  Last year against the Marlins, Mike Matheny made a double-switch, and was not overtly clear when announcing it to the umpire.  The umpire admitted the mistake, but Ozzie Guillen was adamant that the lineup change was official once the umpire reported it to him.  The Cardinals were forced to remove Allan Craig from the game because of this.

 

As for my situation it was not a double-switch.  It was a straight substitution.  I'm pretty certain that the coach told me #23 for #13 and I incorrect assumed because I already saw #23 pitching that my brain heard #6 instead of #13.  So what happened was that #6 went from pitcher to whatever position #13 was in, and #23 came in to pitch.  So the only thing impacted in the batting order was that #23 would now be batting in #13's spot. So when #23 came to bat for #13, the DC thought it was BOO because he thought #23 had substituted for #6 and that's where he should have been batting. 

[Oldcrow]

Scott,

 

Depending on his tone when he asked "are you going to get a single thing right today", I might have dumped him on the spot. If I didn't run him immediately, he's soon going to come to an understanding that he's not going to be allowed to go there again. The second time he said something personal, it's a no brainer for me. He's getting his ticket punched. As a newer umpire to varsity ball you're going to be tested. Eject early and often when they test you like this, and soon you won't have to eject very often at all. They'll know where the line is.

 

Tim.

That first statement is all it would take for me...He's on his way to the lot

[MPLSMatt]

I started asking coaches for lineup cards during JV games here last year, just for practice.   A lot of times they are using books with 2 carbons anyway so it was no big deal and it builds instant credibility with the coaches since you are "going the extra mile."  If the coaches gripe because they don't have a copy I don't insist and I allow them to report directly to one another, but if they have one anyway it's great practice.  

[mstaylor]

JV play by the same rules as varsity, JV has a plate meeting and line-ups cards. 

[RC@54OUTS]

Well you won't forget a pen next time. Right! Now let's look at the situation here. For now I don't give a damn about sneaky coaches. You'll learn. But your feeling guilty and the coach is getting his ass kicked. Of course he's going to blame you for everything. That's when you give the formal warning. A formal warning puts you in a defendable position. Always give a formal warning when possible. Guess how I know. If I cut myself on a call I'm not going to let a coach throw a pound of salt in the wound. Maybe a pinch but that's it. You'll never forget this. Move on and never ever ever let a coach show you up!

[LMSANS]

JV play by the same rules as varsity, JV has a plate meeting and line-ups cards.

Yes, and Frosh too. At least down the shore. Larry Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2