Coach Ejected and Aftermath

[tankmjg24]

Had a youth Little League game today on the bases.  Apparently prior to my partner and I stepping foot on the field none of the previous umpires had enforced the rules.   Fom the beginning, manager gets angry over me enforcing the one coach must be in the dugout at all times rule and throat guard rule.  Later, play at first base with his team hitting and the fielder falls down onto the double first base.  His body is lieing on the white and the ball is in the glove which is over the orange bag.  Easy out call.     Manager starts yelling safe he is on the orange bag.  Rules say he must be on the white bag not the orange bag.  I look at him and say that the player was on the white and that is an out.  He calls time and goes down to my partner to try and argue his case there.  Meanwhile his other base coach is now in the process of trying to double team my partner so I get him out of the conversation.  Manager makes no ground with my partner obviously, so he turns his attention back to me, now upset that I told his assistant he was not allowed in the conversation.  (By the way, this is the 3rd coach that they pulled out of the stands).  He instructs me that his coach could be in the conversation if he wanted to.  I reply that he is the manager and he does the talking and that they are not going to double team an official. He then proceeds to tell me that the player was on the orange bag and the rules say he has to be on white for an out.  I had pretty much had enough at this point so I told him that he had said enough and not to say another word or he would be ejected and that was his warning.  He then looks at the bag and says the player was on orange.  This is when I eject him. 

 

So first all, what does everyone think?  Should I have done it sooner, not at all, or handled it differently? 

 

Now on to the good stuff.  Manager upset at this point pulls his team off the field and says he is not playing.  States that I was looking for things from the beginning.  League president comes over and after a brief conversation decides that they will just reschedule the game later with new umpires and that there would not be a forfeit.  The other coach did not want to win via forfeit so the president felt this would be the best solution.  The manager would be suspended for their next played game (regardless if it is the makeup or one of the regularly scheduled game).  My argument to him is that the manager is not going to have to sit out his full penalty.  He either sits the game he was ejected in or his suspension penalty game where it should be both at the minimum.  It would be either one of the other.  He replied that is how it was going to be and oh well. 

 

So on to the second question.  What do you all think of the president?  Should I write a complaint over the situation and hope someone reads it, stop officiating the league, or do nothing at all?

 

Thanks for all the suggestions in advance.

 

 

[spiritump]

as soon as coach goes to your partner about your call he should be warned and if he still goes to the other ump dump him--as for the league pres.  start looking for a different place to work.

[Replacematt]

1. Good job getting the ass coach off your partner. That being said, don't give ultimatums. Tell a participant "That's enough!" or something of that nature. Ultimatums give both of you little wiggle room and are confrontational.

2. Do not officiate this league, and let them know the reason; that they do not support their umpires and do not hold their participants accountable for their actions.

[mstaylor]

1. NEVER say not another word or similar. If you do then if he says anything you have to dump him. 

2. Explain the rule, which you did, then tell him it is time to play ball and walk away.

3. If he starts to go to the other umpire tell him it is your call and your partner has nothing to say about it. Good job rodeoing the asst off. 

4. when starts his whining about his asst can be part of the conversation, tell him  no way do you get two for one and Asst don't get to argue anyway. 

5. When you ejected him is fine. 

[MPLSMatt]

Wow, your league president a terrible role model.  Rat has a temper tantrum and pulls his team and he's rewarded with a new game?  That's insane.  I'd start looking for another group. 

[RichMSN]

One of our good umpires in the area was merely a coach about 10 years ago when I first met (and ejected) him.

 

Short version: He wanted obstruction in a rundown, there wasn't obstruction.  He came to me and I told him that.  He told me he was going to talk to my partner about that.  I told him that, "No, you're not.  Don't go down there."  He went anyway -- about five steps towards my partner, he was no longer part of the game.

 

Once you make a ruling, he doesn't get to talk to other umpires about it.  That's where you should've stepped in and said, "No, you're not shopping this to another umpire.  I've made my decision, let's go."  If he doesn't listen to that, then eject him.

 

Don't say "One more word" as a matter of course.  It's not productive and backs both of you into a corner.

[GoodOldGus]

Ejection was handled fine.....the league president made a horrible decision.  I see it in my area as well.....league officials complain about the parents and coaches, yet when it's time to "stand up to them", they crumble.  The ejected coach should have been given two options.  1)  Take his ejection, leave and continue the game or 2) take his team of the field and forfeit.  Why do things have to be so difficult?!?  "But it's FOR THE KIDS!!!" cries the fans........If it were "for the kids" these rat coaches wouldn't be making a scene and getting tossed out of a darn little league game. 

[SoCal Lurker]

Been a while since I read the LL rules, but I believe the LL rules mandate that any ejection has to be reveiwed by the board, not just by the president.  I suspect they also require that any non-forfeit when a team refuses to play needs to be reviewed by the board.  A league not enforcing coach-in-the-dugout and safety equipment rules is begging for trouble . . .  any odds on whether the "third coach" was acually a registered coach?

 

Some LLs are staffed by a group of experienced volunteers.  Others, especially newer ones, may be staffed by well-intentioned parents who really don't have the skill set or knowledge to do it well -- but if those are the only volunteers, that's what you get.

[semper_fi_72]

Everything is fine except you have no say in what other game he will be sitting out.

That is the leagues business and not yours.

What level of ball was this?

They also can not pull coaches from the stands.

Coaches must be approved and background checked by the league.

Our leagues use badges that are worn around their neck to indicate they are a coach and cleared.

[RichMSN]

A forfeit doesn't happen at the field in LL -- the game is suspended and reviewed by the BOD.

 

As an umpire, I really don't care -- I just recognize the game's not being finished that day and go to the house.

[umpcoachfather]

Everything is fine except you have no say in what other game he will be sitting out.

That is the leagues business and not yours.

What level of ball was this?

They also can not pull coaches from the stands.

Coaches must be approved and background checked by the league.

Our leagues use badges that are worn around their neck to indicate they are a coach and cleared.

Badges?  Badges?  We dont need no stinking badges.

[basejester]

I'm not looking at rules, but this tickles my intuition.

 

Once the manager is ejected, he doesn't run the team, right?  How is he sticking around to organize the walk out?

 

And no, I don't think the other team gets an option to refuse the forefeit in this scenario.

[mstaylor]

Correct, once ejected he has no say in whether his team continues or not. 

[VAUmp]

Why do you care about his suspension?  It's not your concern as an umpire.  Once the ejected participant leaves the field, as far as the umpire is concerned, the situation is over (except for writing up your report).  Don't hold grudges, it only makes you as bad as them!

[tankmjg24]

Well this league has been around since the dawn of time .  President has been in this position for awhile, board is ran by local politicians.  I have had limited experience with the league but from what I have seen up to this point they think it is a dictatorship and that they can do as they please.  Seems like they do not follow the rules that well.  I do believe that I may not be officiating here anymore since they do not back the umpires. 

 

I care about the suspension for two reasons.  First, it is within the rules that an ejected coach cannot coach for the remainder of that game.  He also has to serve at least a game suspension.  By the president rescheduling the game and not disciplining the coach, what stops this from occurring later?  It sets up my fellow boys in blue to be railroaded down the line.

 

Regarding a report, I asked the president who to send a report to and he responded that nothing was needed and that it was already taken care of.  I have one written up already, but have no idea what to do with it as he does not want it.  

[mstaylor]

 

Everything is fine except you have no say in what other game he will be sitting out.

That is the leagues business and not yours.

What level of ball was this?

They also can not pull coaches from the stands.

Coaches must be approved and background checked by the league.

Our leagues use badges that are worn around their neck to indicate they are a coach and cleared.

Badges?  Badges?  We dont need no stinking badges.

 

I like it, a gratuitous Blazing Saddles reference.   

[blue23ll]

A couple of thoughts here, 1) an assistant coach comes on the field to argue, he's gone, period. He gets no slack in his leash.  2) If the manager wants another umpires opinion on a play, he needs to ask you to get that opinion, he doesn't go call shopping with your partner. This is your call all the way, and you tell the manager that. If I was your partner, I would not even discuss it with the manager. 3) One more word, is not a good thing to say. You know that.

[scrounge]

I'd email the report to the president anyway, if only to create a paper trail and prove what you saw and thought at the time. Otherwise, it may get claimed at a later date that the story was completely different and you'd have nothing but your memory to back it up.

[semper_fi_72]

I care about the suspension for two reasons.  First, it is within the rules that an ejected coach cannot coach for the remainder of that game.  He also has to serve at least a game suspension.  By the president rescheduling the game and not disciplining the coach, what stops this from occurring later?  It sets up my fellow boys in blue to be railroaded down the line.

Any suspension is up to the Board of Directors.

You eject, he leaves that game and don't worry about the future game suspension.

You are only in charge of that game at that time.

Anything else is not relevant and beyond your control.

Let those things go.

The league may have problems so it would be your choice to umpire or not umpire for them.

The only other way to cause change would be to run and get elected to the Board of Directors and try to change from inside the organization.

 

If you really think they do not follow the rules, ie: Throat Protectors or any other SAFETY ISSUE, you could always address your concern to the District Board of Directors responsible for the League or even to the Regional LL office.

[tankmjg24]

It was not my idea nor my partner's idea to allow the third coach from the stands.  The president after being summoned by the coach allowed the third adult from the stands.  My partner and I figured that by allowing this third coach into the game it would appease the coach.  Plus, the president had said yes and that was not a battle we wanted to fight.  I do not know who are rostered coaches that have gone through a background check are and who is merely a mommy or a daddy.  I agree that they should be rostered and checked, and quite frank if they are why are they not in the dugout from the beginning?  

 

Little League Rule 4.07 states:    When a manager, coach or player is ejected from a game, they shall leave the field immediately and take no further part in that game. They may not sit in the stands and may not be recalled. A manager or coach ejected from a game must not be present at the game site for the remainder of that game. Any manager, coach or player ejected from a game is suspended for his or her team’s next physically played game and may not be in attendance at the game site from which they were suspended.

 

The ejected manager is required to serve a minimum of a one game suspension.  In the event the board feels more is warranted, they can add more to the suspension, but they cannot take away from it.  

 

What bugs me with all of this is I feel myself and my fellow umpires are not being backed.  In a situation like this if you allow the coach his way, when will they learn? 

[Mike Prince]

In this instance it may be more valuable to focus on what you can learn and what you can control, rather than how the situation is handled post-EJ.  As much as you try, you are not part of that process nor do you have any real control over it.

 

It seems like your options have been laid out - use this experience to walk away from the whole mess, or use it to get involved at an administrative level to effect change.  But as the umpire you have to let go of the situation and move on.

[tankmjg24]

Sorry guys, I typed wrong in the beginning about what I said to the coach.  It was late and I was just typing and did not proof read.  I agree that one does not give an ultimatum to the coach as that backs you into a corner.  My wording was "Coach you have said what you wanted to say and we have heard enough.  You are arguing a judgement call and that is an ejectable offense.  You do not want to go down that road.  This is your warning."  At this point is when he continued on about orange vs. white and was ejected. 

 

My main complaint is that the league president overstepped his boundaries on this one.  He is not backing his umpires and this to me puts us in a situation where a coach can just not like an official and complain and nothing is going to happen to him.  They are going to do what they are going to do, but it does not change the fact that we as umpires are the ones getting the short of the end.  I know this is usually the case, but they are circumfenting rules to put us there. 

[semper_fi_72]

Sorry guys, I typed wrong in the beginning about what I said to the coach.  It was late and I was just typing and did not proof read.  I agree that one does not give an ultimatum to the coach as that backs you into a corner.  My wording was "Coach you have said what you wanted to say and we have heard enough.  You are arguing a judgement call and that is an ejectable offense.  You do not want to go down that road.  This is your warning."  At this point is when he continued on about orange vs. white and was ejected. 

 

My main complaint is that the league president overstepped his boundaries on this one.  He is not backing his umpires and this to me puts us in a situation where a coach can just not like an official and complain and nothing is going to happen to him.  They are going to do what they are going to do, but it does not change the fact that we as umpires are the ones getting the short of the end.  I know this is usually the case, but they are circumfenting rules to put us there. 

How do you know the League President over stepped his boundaries?

Do you have a copy of the LL Rules for running a League and what the Presidents responsibilities are or are not?

As a umpire on the field, who do you work for?

It is the League President!!!!!!

 

The League President saying it is ok for someone to come into the stands to be a 3rd Coach is fine.

He is the League President and has that authority.

 

As far as Managers/Coaches complaining to a League Official, weather it be Little League or another other organization, welcome to Umpiring Baseball.

If you can't stand the heat in a particular organization, don't umpire there.

If you can't stand managers or coaches complaining to League Officials, find another hobby, pastime or career.

Umpiring will not be for you.

 

Otherwise, officiate the game and don't worry about what the league does behind the scenes.

 

If this one incident is causing you so much grief, you have a long road ahead of yourself in the field of Umpiring.

 

Stop worrying about what they should do or not do and focus on what you could have or not done during this incident to have handled it better.

 

You are way to concerned about things that are outside of your responsibility.

[grayhawk]

It's absolutely preposterous that a league president, who was at this game, would allow this crybaby manager to pull his team off the field.  I am a board member of our local league, and if I was there, the conversation would go something like this:

 

Me:  John, you were ejected.  Please leave the vicinity of the field so the kids can play.

 

John:  No, I won't and am taking my team off the field and we won't play.

 

Me:  John, the kids from each team came here to play a baseball game, not to have an upset manager prevent them from doing so.  Managers are appointed by the board, and since I am the board member present, I will be giving the board a full report of this incident.  The decision will be up to the full board, but my recommendation if you continue down this path, will be for your removal as manager.  Again, please leave the vicinity of the field so these kids can play.

 

We had an ejection in the last regular season game in our majors division.  Since I am the majors commissioner, I got the ejection report, as well as an email from the manager that was ejected.  My conclusion was that the EJ was quick, and also affected by previous history between the manager and umpire from earlier in the season.  Nevertheless, our decision was to affirm the ejection, suspend the manager for his next game (their first playoff game) AND give our full support to the umpire to be on the dish for this team's next game (he was already on the schedule for it).  The manager just assumed we would pull him off the game, but I assured him that our volunteer umpires have our full support and the assignments would not change.

 

I did speak with the umpire about the ejection and in an effort to further his training, I let him know that anything that happened in previous games should be forgotten and not affect anything he does in the current or future games.  There was also a procedural snafu on how the situation was handled leading up to the ejection that if both manager and umpire handled correctly, might not have lead to an EJ in the first place.

 

Youth baseball is fantastic, until it gets ruined by adults acting like children.

[SoCal Lurker]

 

Youth baseball is fantastic, until it gets ruined by adults acting like children.

 

A bit wordy for a bumpe sticker, but getting there . . .