Line Out Question

May 6, 2013

Situation:

Bases are loaded and no outs.

Batter hits a line drive to the pitcher for out 1.

Pitcher throws to third base to double off runner but over throws the third baseman and the ball goes out of play.

What is the correct call?

cyclonehokiece · May 6, 2013

2 bases time of throw for all runners,since the catch of the liner is a play. So, R3 and R2 score, R1 is now on third. Resume the game with one out, be prepared for any appeals that may happen because players did not retag their base.

Umpete · May 6, 2013

Two bases TOT. All runners liable to be out on appeal if they don't retouch before advancing.

tldavis19 · May 6, 2013

2 bases time of throw for all runners,since the catch of the liner is a play. So, R3 and R2 score, R1 is now on third. Resume the game with one out, be prepared for any appeals that may happen because players did not retag their base.

+1

Aging_Arbiter · May 6, 2013

Didn't respond quick enough with the same as above, so I'll go with............"ditto"

May 6, 2013

That was how it was called.

What if neither runner went back to tag and their is no ball to double off runners.

noumpere · May 6, 2013

2 bases time of throw for all runners,since the catch of the liner is a play. So, R3 and R2 score, R1 is now on third. Resume the game with one out, be prepared for any appeals that may happen because players did not retag their base.

The catch is not a play and its two bases from TOP not that it will matter in this play.

Birdieseeker · May 6, 2013

That's what I had noumpere. It should be TOP but in this case it all works out the same

BalkHawk · May 6, 2013

"TIME!"

semper_fi_72 · May 6, 2013

Ok

So point out where they have to RETOUCH the bases before being awarded TWO BASES?

The ball was thrown out of play and all action is now DEAD.

7.05(g) does not say anything about retouching bases.

Runners are "awarded" Two Bases from the TOP regardless.

They are advanced "without" the liability of being put out.

grayhawk · May 6, 2013

That was how it was called.

What if neither runner went back to tag and their is no ball to double off runners.

First,

Ok

So point out where they have to RETOUCH the bases before being awarded TWO BASES?

The ball was thrown out of play and all action is now DEAD.

7.05(g) does not say anything about retouching bases.

Runners are "awarded" Two Bases from the TOP regardless.

They are advanced "without" the liability of being put out.

Whoa Lou. If they did not retouch, then they would be in jeopardy of being called out on appeal. In Fed, it could be a dead ball appeal. In OBR, once the ball is put back into play. The throw into DBT does not relieve the runners of their responsibility to retouch.

UmpJM · May 6, 2013

semper,

Of course they have to retouch. If they don't they are subject to an appeal when the ball is put back in play.

From the 7.05(i) Comment:

If a runner is forced to return to a base after a catch, he must retouch his original base even though,

because of some ground rule or other rule, he is awarded additional bases. He may retouch while the ball

is dead and the award is then made from his original base.

JM

semper_fi_72 · May 6, 2013

semper,

Of course they have to retouch. If they don't they are subject to an appeal when the ball is put back in play.

From the 7.05(i) Comment:

If a runner is forced to return to a base after a catch, he must retouch his original base even though,

because of some ground rule or other rule, he is awarded additional bases. He may retouch while the ball

is dead and the award is then made from his original base.

JM

Ok

Thank you

That is what I was looking for and could not find it.

I stand corrected.

cyclonehokiece · May 6, 2013

2 bases time of throw for all runners,since the catch of the liner is a play. So, R3 and R2 score, R1 is now on third. Resume the game with one out, be prepared for any appeals that may happen because players did not retag their base.

The catch is not a play and its two bases from TOP not that it will matter in this play.

Huh, always thought that the catch was the initial play. Is there any rule reference that I need to re-examine or case play on this (don't have rules in front of me right now)? You are right, on this play (and most catches on the infield) it does not matter.

noumpere · May 6, 2013

That was how it was called.

What if neither runner went back to tag and their is no ball to double off runners.

Then when the ball is put back into play, the defense can appeal or if you are playing under HS rules the defense can just do a verbal appeal once the runners have reached their advance base.

Huh, always thought that the catch was the initial play. Is there any rule reference that I need to re-examine or case play on this (don't have rules in front of me right now)? You are right, on this play (and most catches on the infield) it does not matter.

A play is an action by a fielder with the ball in an attempt to retire a runner. Something like that is from Evans or JR or MLBUM or something (or maybe from all of them). Been discussed here many times,.

cyclonehokiece · May 6, 2013

Huh, always thought that the catch was the initial play. Is there any rule reference that I need to re-examine or case play on this (don't have rules in front of me right now)? You are right, on this play (and most catches on the infield) it does not matter.

A play is an action by a fielder with the ball in an attempt to retire a runner. Something like that is from Evans or JR or MLBUM or something (or maybe from all of them). Been discussed here many times,.

Thanks. I always thought a catch was a play since it is an action (the catch) by the fielder that retires a runner (the BR), making anything after it a second play. But if the powers that be say I am wrong, I am wrong.

Aging_Arbiter · May 6, 2013

A play is an action by a fielder with the ball in an attempt to retire a runner. Something like that is from Evans or JR or MLBUM or something (or maybe from all of them). Been discussed here many times,.

You mean......like catching the ball?

sdix00 · May 6, 2013

Huh, always thought that the catch was the initial play. Is there any rule reference that I need to re-examine or case play on this (don't have rules in front of me right now)? You are right, on this play (and most catches on the infield) it does not matter.

MLBUM 2010

37. Interpretation of Rules 7.05(g) and 7.10: Play or

Attempted Play

The following interpretation of "play or attempted play" applies

to both awarding of bases (Official Baseball Rule 7.05(gÂ» and appeal

plays (Official Baseball Rule 7.10):

A play or attempted play is interpreted as a legitimate effort by

a defensive player who has possession of the ball to actually retire a

runner. This may include an actual attempt to tag a runner, a fielder

running toward a base with the ball in an attempt to force or tag a run-

ner, or actually throwing to another defensive player in an attempt to

retire a runner. (The fact that the runner is not out is not relevant.) A

fake or a feint to throw shall not be deemed a play or an attempted

play.

A Balk is also an attempted play, for the purposes of ruling on an appeal.

MLBUM 2010

34.(5) Runner on first, one out. Runner from first goes to third on

a single but misses second base. Runner is safe at third on a sliding

tag play. The ball is returned to the pitcher, who steps on the rubber,

stretches, and comes to a set position. The defense intends to appeal,

but the pitcher balks in stepping off the rubber. After the penalty is

enforced, may the defense still appeal at second base on the original

runner from first?

Ruling: No. The defense did not lose its right to appeal by play-

ing on the runner originally on first at third base; that play was still

part of the continuous action created by and following the batted ball.

However, a balk is considered a play for the purpose of this section of

the appeal rule. Because the defensive team cannot appeal following

a play or attempted play, the pitcher's balk cost the defensive team its

right to make an appeal.

NOTE: The pitcher is not required to step off the rubber prior to

throwing to a base to make an appeal (see Official Baseball Rule 8.01).

sdix00 · May 6, 2013

A play is an action by a fielder with the ball in an attempt to retire a runner. Something like that is from Evans or JR or MLBUM or something (or maybe from all of them). Been discussed here many times,.

You mean......like catching the ball?

Catching the ball for an out is NOT a play. I know it sounds weird, but do a search on this topic and you will see how we get there. Hope you get there faster than I did, though. My thick skull and all. :smachhead:

cyclonehokiece · May 6, 2013

Huh, always thought that the catch was the initial play. Is there any rule reference that I need to re-examine or case play on this (don't have rules in front of me right now)? You are right, on this play (and most catches on the infield) it does not matter.

MLBUM 2010

37. Interpretation of Rules 7.05(g) and 7.10: Play or

Attempted Play

The following interpretation of "play or attempted play" applies

to both awarding of bases (Official Baseball Rule 7.05(gÂ» and appeal

plays (Official Baseball Rule 7.10):

A play or attempted play is interpreted as a legitimate effort by

a defensive player who has possession of the ball to actually retire a

runner. This may include an actual attempt to tag a runner, a fielder

running toward a base with the ball in an attempt to force or tag a run-

ner, or actually throwing to another defensive player in an attempt to

retire a runner. (The fact that the runner is not out is not relevant.) A

fake or a feint to throw shall not be deemed a play or an attempted

play.

A Balk is also an attempted play, for the purposes of ruling on an appeal.

MLBUM 2010

34.(5) Runner on first, one out. Runner from first goes to third on

a single but misses second base. Runner is safe at third on a sliding

tag play. The ball is returned to the pitcher, who steps on the rubber,

stretches, and comes to a set position. The defense intends to appeal,

but the pitcher balks in stepping off the rubber. After the penalty is

enforced, may the defense still appeal at second base on the original

runner from first?

Ruling: No. The defense did not lose its right to appeal by play-

ing on the runner originally on first at third base; that play was still

part of the continuous action created by and following the batted ball.

However, a balk is considered a play for the purpose of this section of

the appeal rule. Because the defensive team cannot appeal following

a play or attempted play, the pitcher's balk cost the defensive team its

right to make an appeal.

NOTE: The pitcher is not required to step off the rubber prior to

throwing to a base to make an appeal (see Official Baseball Rule 8.01).

I stand corrected. Weird, but I accept when I am wrong (and this is not the first time). My original post should say time of pitch.

Aging_Arbiter · May 6, 2013

A play is an action by a fielder with the ball in an attempt to retire a runner. Something like that is from Evans or JR or MLBUM or something (or maybe from all of them).   Been discussed here many times,.

You mean......like catching the ball?

Catching the ball for an out is NOT a play. I know it sounds weird, but do a search on this topic and you will see how we get there. Hope you get there faster than I did, though. My thick skull and all.

I'm going to have to search it later and see what transpired. Especially when " A play or attempted play is interpreted as a legitimate effort by a defensive player who has possession of the ball to actually retire a runner" tells me different. This must have been beaten up pretty bad in the past. Until I review conclusions, to me, a pitcher catching a "line out" was a "legitimate effort by a defensive player who has posession of the ball to actually retire the runner".

I mean, what's he GOING to do? "Johnny, you keep running. I know I caught the ball, but I'll try to get you out again!" ....??

a) Raising the glove to catch a ball is a legitimate effort by a defensive player. criteria met

b) He caught it, so he has posession of the ball. criteria met

c) Yep, you guessed it, he retired the runner. criteria met

I hope the "search" provides ALOT more insight than applying a little CSFP logic if I'm changing my call based on the info provided above.

If there are runners on base that left at the crack/ping of the bat, don't they return to tag up becasue a catch "an intervening play" was made?

Mike Prince · May 6, 2013

Another way to look at this without the rule/MLBUM cite is that the play was made on the ball, not the runner. There was no attempt to retire the runner, but the fielder did attempt to field the ball. What if he had dropped the line drive, then the play transpired as in the OP? Would you have TOT or TOP awards?

Aging_Arbiter · May 6, 2013

Another way to look at this without the rule/MLBUM cite is that the play was made on the ball, not the runner. There was no attempt to retire the runner, but the fielder did attempt to field the ball. What if he had dropped the line drive, then the play transpired as in the OP? Would you have TOT or TOP awards?

Or another way is R1, a line out to F3 who steps on the bag for an unassited double PLAY. Hmmmmmmmm

My apologies in advance folks. but until I see something a little more conclusive, reading between the lines and applying different rules to reach one outcome is something that we <insert sarcasm> change in parking lots and get paid big bucks for <end sarcasm>.

I was going to wait until later, but could not. I ALSO could not locate a previous thread where this was discussed. Any help from my fellow arbiters (thats not a bad word Jax) in locating this thread would be greatly appreciated. After all, I want to get the call correct.

SoCal Lurker · May 6, 2013

A play is an action by a fielder with the ball in an attempt to retire a runner. Something like that is from Evans or JR or MLBUM or something (or maybe from all of them).   Been discussed here many times,.

You mean......like catching the ball?

Catching the ball for an out is NOT a play. I know it sounds weird, but do a search on this topic and you will see how we get there. Hope you get there faster than I did, though. My thick skull and all.

I'm going to have to search it later and see what transpired. Especially when " A play or attempted play is interpreted as a legitimate effort by a defensive player who has possession of the ball to actually retire a runner" tells me different. This must have been beaten up pretty bad in the past. Until I review conclusions, to me, a pitcher catching a "line out" was a "legitimate effort by a defensive player who has posession of the ball to actually retire the runner".

. . .

a) Raising the glove to catch a ball is a legitimate effort by a defensive player. criteria met

b) He caught it, so he has posession of the ball. criteria met

c) Yep, you guessed it, he retired the runner. criteria met

The problem is that you (a) and (b) are in the wrong sequence. It is an effort by the player who has possession. On a caught ball, it is an effort to gain possession, not something done by the player with possesion . . . of course, it takes quite the thrid world play for it to matter . . .

Aging_Arbiter · May 6, 2013

Catching the ball for an out is NOT a play. I know it sounds weird, but do a search on this topic and you will see how we get there. Hope you get there faster than I did, though. My thick skull and all.

I'm going to have to search it later and see what transpired. Especially when " A play or attempted play is interpreted as a legitimate effort by a defensive player who has possession of the ball to actually retire a runner" tells me different. This must have been beaten up pretty bad in the past. Until I review conclusions, to me, a pitcher catching a "line out" was a "legitimate effort by a defensive player who has posession of the ball to actually retire the runner".

. . .

a) Raising the glove to catch a ball is a legitimate effort by a defensive player. criteria met

b) He caught it, so he has posession of the ball. criteria met

c) Yep, you guessed it, he retired the runner. criteria met

The problem is that you (a) and (b) are in the wrong sequence. It is an effort by the player who has possession. On a caught ball, it is an effort to gain possession, not something done by the player with possesion . . . of course, it takes quite the thrid world play for it to matter . . .

Don't get me wrong fellas (and any lady lurkers out there), I see where you are trying to go, but just not convinced I want to follow. SoCal, in his effort to Gain posession, he caught the ball. Does that not mean that he now HAS posession?

C"mon...........someone PLEASE find the link to the previous thread before Warren or MST slap me with the beating a dead horse emoticon..........

noumpere · May 6, 2013

Don't get me wrong fellas (and any lady lurkers out there), I see where you are trying to go, but just not convinced I want to follow. SoCal, in his effort to Gain posession, he caught the ball. Does that not mean that he now HAS posession?

C"mon...........someone PLEASE find the link to the previous thread before Warren or MST slap me with the beating a dead horse emoticon..........

See post #18 by sdix for the reference. Don't follow it if you don't want to but the rest of us will.

Line Out Question

Question

Guest Ken Koch

Top Posters For This Question

Popular Days

Top Posters For This Question

Popular Days

Popular Posts

noumpere

sdix00

grayhawk

27 answers to this question

Recommended Posts

Guest Ken Koch