Counting calls...

[Vegas]

12U rec game.

 

HT Batter comes up to the plate. Before I put ball in play, scorekeeper calls my attention. He tells me HT has the on deck batter and the at the plate batter switched.

 

Both lineups when they're turned in are "scorekeeper controlled" in our league, meaning that all lineup switches, substations, and pitch/inning counts are kept up by the department. There were a bunch of discrepancies over the last few seasons, so the county decided to keep that in line.

 

We set the lineup right and move to play - when the VT rat AC starts yelling from the dugout, "Shouldn't that be an out? They switched the lineup!" I ignore him and proceed to start the inning. In the VT's half of the next inning, there's a play at the plate - VT runner steps on F2's mitt with ball in it before he hits the dish, I bang the out. After that play, F2 tries to throw down to third and muffs the transition from mitt to ball. After that play, VT's HC comes out to ask what I have on the plate call. We have a discussion, and VT HC calm on the way back, while the VT AC is yelling, "Your back was turned! He dropped the ball!" in the dugout. I tell VT AC "That's enough" and the inning ends a few batters later.

 

During the change over, VT AC comes to warm his pitcher up. I'm talking with the scorekeeper, turn around to  adjust my mask, and the AC is looking at me. We have a conversation:

 

"That's the second call you've missed today."

"Excuse me, coach?"

"The lineup switch and the blown call at home last inning, you..."

"You can count the rest of the calls from the parking lot, coach, *crow hop*, you're done."

 

He comes unglued. I put his team back in the dugout and tell him that he leaves or his team forfeits. The HC comes and gets him and the park director moves him to the lot. The game ends without further incident.

[UmpJM]

Vegas,

 

Do you think that was the best way to manage the game in that situation?

 

Also, by rule, the umpire is supposed to do nothing if the offensive team sends an improper batter to the plate - at least until one team or the other notices it.

 

JM

[Thunderheads]

"crow hop" !!!! LMAO!!!

 

However, ...I would have corrected him like this: (fantasy ejection )

 

Coach, ...  3 things ............ 1, the batting order issue IS NOT AN OUT, please understand the rules, ....2, after the tag play at home I have a voluntary release by the catcher ....

 

AC:  you said 3 things, what's the third .....

 

me:   You're done! BOOM!

 

BUT,...I like the way you handled it!!

 

STUPID RATS!!!!!!!!

[Thunderheads]

 

"crow hop" !!!! LMAO!!!

 

However, ...I would have corrected him like this:

 

Coach, ...  3 things ............ 1, the batting order issue IS NOT AN OUT, please understand the rules, ....2, after the tag play at home I have a voluntary release by the catcher ....

 

AC:  you said 3 things, what's the third .....

 

me:   You're done! BOOM!

 

BUT,...I like the way you handled it!!

 

STUPID RATS!!!!!!!!

 

I hope you're joking.

 

Ok, Mr. Ejection, please tell us how this SHOULD have gone, ... we'll all wait patiently for your response

 

I'll tell you one thing, an AC that's been squawking at me from the dugout, telling me something he knows nothing about AFTER IT'S OVER .... then tells me how many I've missed???  He gets ZERO rope....none

[grayhawk]

We set the lineup right and move to play - when the VT rat AC starts yelling from the dugout, "Shouldn't that be an out? They switched the lineup!" I ignore him and proceed to start the inning.

 

Why ignore in this situation?  It's a question that deserves an answer.  If it was me, then I would ask him to come out and professionally explain to him the rule and then get the game going.

[Vegas]

 

We set the lineup right and move to play - when the VT rat AC starts yelling from the dugout, "Shouldn't that be an out? They switched the lineup!" I ignore him and proceed to start the inning.

 

Why ignore in this situation?  It's a question that deserves an answer.  If it was me, then I would ask him to come out and professionally explain to him the rule and then get the game going.

 

 

We had a giant mandatory meeting with the HCs/ACs and informed them of the rule changes yesterday before the season started. It's in the handbooks and I go over it in the pre game. If the AC can't get it after that, I don't know what to tell him.

[UmpJM]

Jeff,

 

Coach comes out to warm-up the pitcher during the change.

 

Appears to be some informal chit-chat between him and the PU while he's warming up the pitcher.(why the PU is even standing close enough to the coach for that to happen remains a mystery).

 

All of a sudden, the PU dumps the Coach.

 

To the casual observer, who looks like a "red-ass" and who looks like a "victim"?

 

JM

[Thunderheads]

Jeff,

 

Coach comes out to warm-up the pitcher during the change.

 

Appears to be some informal chit-chat between him and the PU while he's warming up the pitcher.(why the PU is even standing close enough to the coach for that to happen remains a mystery).

 

All of a sudden, the PU dumps the Coach.

 

To the casual observer, who looks like a "red-ass" and who looks like a "victim"?

 

JM

JM,

I understand how you're looking at that, I really do.   But, are you telling me you're going to let the AC who's been barking at you for 2 innings come out to warm up the pitcher, bring up calls that are in the past, ....and, ....tell you how many you've missed? 

 

By the way, ... Vegas said he had said something to the scorekeeper which may have put him close enough at that time (I guess).

 

Again, I do see how you're looking at that though....

[UmpJM]

Jeff,

 

I would not have let the AC - nor anyone else inside the confines of the field - bark at me for 2 innings.

 

Nor would I have "played offense" by depriving the defense of a legitimate opportunity for a BOOT appeal.

 

JM

[Thunderheads]

JM,

again, understood ....

 

but what I think was missed was ........... 12u REC game ......

[Vegas]

Vegas,

 

Do you think that was the best way to manage the game in that situation?

 

Also, by rule, the umpire is supposed to do nothing if the offensive team sends an improper batter to the plate - at least until one team or the other notices it.

 

JM

 

The fences at the park on the sides are tight - the side fences are maybe 8-9 feet from the baselines, they wedged the park in there. The backstop is really shallow as well. I can take two long steps and hit the fence. I stand at the corner of the backstop, with the corner that I stand in corresponding to which team is batting, it's the only place that I can stand that isn't essentially in the dugout or in the on deck circle.

 

I am aware of the rule about the umpire not doing anything. We have a scorekeeper that sits behind the backstop on a raised platform that called the attention and started the events in motion, so my hand was kind of forced at that point.

 

But when the AC tries to make a point in those shallow fences loud enough with batters and spectators to hear after I've warned him, AND the HC's already explained it to him, he's got to go.

[grayhawk]

 

 

We set the lineup right and move to play - when the VT rat AC starts yelling from the dugout, "Shouldn't that be an out? They switched the lineup!" I ignore him and proceed to start the inning.

 

Why ignore in this situation?  It's a question that deserves an answer.  If it was me, then I would ask him to come out and professionally explain to him the rule and then get the game going.

 

 

We had a giant mandatory meeting with the HCs/ACs and informed them of the rule changes yesterday before the season started. It's in the handbooks and I go over it in the pre game. If the AC can't get it after that, I don't know what to tell him.

 

 

Sorry, I didn't absorb that it was an AC.  If the HC asked from the dugout, then I would explain it.  AC's don't get the same courtesy.

[Thunderheads]

 

 

 

"crow hop" !!!! LMAO!!!

 

However, ...I would have corrected him like this:

 

Coach, ...  3 things ............ 1, the batting order issue IS NOT AN OUT, please understand the rules, ....2, after the tag play at home I have a voluntary release by the catcher ....

 

AC:  you said 3 things, what's the third .....

 

me:   You're done! BOOM!

 

BUT,...I like the way you handled it!!

 

STUPID RATS!!!!!!!!

 

I hope you're joking.

 

Ok, Mr. Ejection, please tell us how this SHOULD have gone, ... we'll all wait patiently for your response

 

I'll tell you one thing, an AC that's been squawking at me from the dugout, telling me something he knows nothing about AFTER IT'S OVER gets ZERO rope....none

 

 

I have no issue with the ejection. Like your post, I take exception to the sarcasm you suggest using in dealing with the coach. And for what it's worth, especially for a forum moderator, I do not find your post to uphold the standards Warren and this website prides itself on, making it the premier place for online umpire interaction.

 

 

Ok, now it's my turn.  I hope you're joking.

[UmpJM]

OK boys. You can both piss REALLY far, and we are all duly impressed.

 

Take it outside.

 

JM

[Mike Prince]

I have a few "meant to be constructive" questions (at least I think so):

 

1. When questioned about the BOOT by the AC in the dugout, why would you not simply nod your head no?,  No need to directly address him, but IMO this acknowledges the question and puts you in a better position to move on.

2. The second situation sounds like it was handled properly.

3. At the change-over, was there a reason to be talking to the scorekeeper?  Seems like you should have been up either the 3B or 1B line in foul ground watching the field.

4. Given where you were during the change-over, why did you engage in conversation with the AC?  You ignored him when he was in the dugout but now between innings you have a conversation?  Here it seems like you should have moved to baseline of the HT, that way he has to come to you to initiate conversation and that makes him the aggressor.  He'd already been yelling and you had warned him, I'd be looking to get away from him and a potential conversation.

 

EJ seems fine, just not the way you got there.

[Vegas]

As JM suggests, PU got suckered into this one. Not saying the guy didn't need to go, but that when the individual in question came off the bench to warm up the pitcher, his intentions should've been apparent and PU should've put himself in a position where the AC either needs to go out of his way to engage the PU or create enough distance where any conversation can be overheard.

 

 

I figured it was going to be something when the AC came out to warm the new F2 up, I looked to slide up the 1B line to avoid, but couldn't b/c of batters warming up and coaches, and I didn't want to go towards VC AC and look confrontational, so I turned to the score keeper and asked for my gatorade bottle, grabbed a drink, adjusted my mask, and there he was. I mentally shrugged and hoped for a positive inquiry. I was wrong and the events happened.

 

I figured after the loud "That's enough" after the plate play to the AC, the issue was over.

[Vegas]

I have a few "meant to be constructive" questions (at least I think so):

 

1. When questioned about the BOOT by the AC in the dugout, why would you not simply nod your head no?,  No need to directly address him, but IMO this acknowledges the question and puts you in a better position to move on.

2. The second situation sounds like it was handled properly.

3. At the change-over, was there a reason to be talking to the scorekeeper?  Seems like you should have been up either the 3B or 1B line in foul ground watching the field.

4. Given where you were during the change-over, why did you engage in conversation with the AC?  You ignored him when he was in the dugout but now between innings you have a conversation?  Here it seems like you should have moved to baseline of the HT, that way he has to come to you to initiate conversation and that makes him the aggressor.  He'd already been yelling and you had warned him, I'd be looking to get away from him and a potential conversation.

 

EJ seems fine, just not the way you got there.

 

1. I probably should have. I put the ball in play, and was getting locked in. Maybe after the next pitch I should have.

3. I was trying to get up 1B line, I had batters swinging and coaches there, and up 3B line was right towards AC, and I didn't want to look aggressive, so I did the best I could. I asked him to grab my water bottle and tried to buy time.

4. He looked at me, I looked, and it was on from there. I still had to be courteous and assuming he had constructive stuff, but sadly he didn't.

[bam]

The problem with some of these 60' fields is that there's not enough room to get far enough away from a problem coach. 

[umpcoachfather]

I would have ejected him as soon as he questioned my integrity.  However, I wouldnt have crow hopped, I would have told him he was done then told the HC.  In this instance I wouldnt have created the spectacle. 

 

Also,

In the future I would tell the scorekeeper (unless they were instructed to point out BOOO prior to the infraction) to zip the lips. 

[UmpJM]

umpcoachfather,

 

The coach never impugned his integrity - just his competence.

 

There's a difference.

 

JM

[dumbdumb]

As the HC, I would have crow hopped my AC and this column would have been, "Have you ever seen HC dump AC". It was great.

 

Just like with the kids, I would have told everyone, kids, parents and AC what I expected from them. I would be the one to speak with the umpires. If the AC wanted to be the HC, I would gladly let him, but if he wanted me to now be the AC, that would be fine, but, it would come with the condition that I do not speak (or let's just say I refuse to argue at all, zip, nada, nothing) to the umpires at all except to say hello. That's his job. And at this level if he gets kicked out of the game, we forfeit, because HC is not my job. Conduct yourself accordingly. Of course if he wants a new AC, that's fine with me, but don't say I didn't offer to help.

[BretMan]

A little bit of a tangent...

 

I understand having an "official" scorekeeper and running all the changes though him. Recording changes is one thing, but having the scorekeeper interject himself into the game, possibly giving one team an advanatge or puting the other at a disadvantage, by pointing out a possible rule infraction is something else altogether.

 

Aren't official scorekeepers supposed to be neutral third parties? Don't the rules say that batting order violations must be appealed by a team coach?

 

I'd be having a little talk with my scorekeepers to get that straightened out.

[dumbdumb]

A little bit of a tangent...

 

I understand having an "official" scorekeeper and running all the changes though him. Recording changes is one thing, but having the scorekeeper interject himself into the game, possibly giving one team an advanatge or puting the other at a disadvantage, by pointing out a possible rule infraction is something else altogether.

 

Aren't official scorekeepers supposed to be neutral third parties? Don't the rules say that batting order violations must be appealed by a team coach?

 

I'd be having a little talk with my scorekeepers to get that straightened out.

This should have already been talked about and the scorekeepers would have been told very emphatically that if they interjected anything (because this could give someone an advantage), they would be removed as a scorekeeper. Now, if the league wants them to mention something, it should be so all can hear and the coach be given a chance to put the correct batter up, and it should be brought up every time this happens. They would not be able to announce it for one side when it happens but suddenly fall asleep at the wheel and forget to announce for the other side. One way or the other.

[Vegas]

 

A little bit of a tangent...

 

I understand having an "official" scorekeeper and running all the changes though him. Recording changes is one thing, but having the scorekeeper interject himself into the game, possibly giving one team an advanatge or puting the other at a disadvantage, by pointing out a possible rule infraction is something else altogether.

 

Aren't official scorekeepers supposed to be neutral third parties? Don't the rules say that batting order violations must be appealed by a team coach?

 

I'd be having a little talk with my scorekeepers to get that straightened out.

This should have already been talked about and the scorekeepers would have been told very emphatically that if they interjected anything (because this could give someone an advantage), they would be removed as a scorekeeper. Now, if the league wants them to mention something, it should be so all can hear and the coach be given a chance to put the correct batter up, and it should be brought up every time this happens. They would not be able to announce it for one side when it happens but suddenly fall asleep at the wheel and forget to announce for the other side. One way or the other.

 

 

The league is run that way that the statement that I bolded says. The scorekeeper acts as a check for the batting out of order as well as the pitch count for the pitchers that throw. That's just the way they chose to do it.

[mstaylor]

 

 

A little bit of a tangent...

 

I understand having an "official" scorekeeper and running all the changes though him. Recording changes is one thing, but having the scorekeeper interject himself into the game, possibly giving one team an advanatge or puting the other at a disadvantage, by pointing out a possible rule infraction is something else altogether.

 

Aren't official scorekeepers supposed to be neutral third parties? Don't the rules say that batting order violations must be appealed by a team coach?

 

I'd be having a little talk with my scorekeepers to get that straightened out.

This should have already been talked about and the scorekeepers would have been told very emphatically that if they interjected anything (because this could give someone an advantage), they would be removed as a scorekeeper. Now, if the league wants them to mention something, it should be so all can hear and the coach be given a chance to put the correct batter up, and it should be brought up every time this happens. They would not be able to announce it for one side when it happens but suddenly fall asleep at the wheel and forget to announce for the other side. One way or the other.

 

 

The league is run that way that the statement that I bolded says. The scorekeeper acts as a check for the batting out of order as well as the pitch count for the pitchers that throw. That's just the way they chose to do it.

 

I understand the league scorekeeper verifying the BOO but he still shouldn't initiate it. And then there is the real world.....The scorekeeper/president of the local Pony league, this was years ago, would announce batters as they came to bat. If he saw a BOO he would announce the batter a second time. If the manager was smart enough to catch it  all is good, if not it got handled later.