Foul Tip, Foul Ball, or Award First?

[CricketChapman]

Maybe I should have placed this thread in "situations," but there are many rules invlolved.  One of the Commissioners in my league asked if the umpire had gotten this call right; sorry for the lack of info, but this is all I received (as quoted from the coach's email):

"We had a situation where a foul tip on a batter with two strikes hit the catcher's mitt, then his chest protector, and as he tried to corral the ball, it rolled inside his chest protector. The ball never hit the ground. The home plate umpire...claimed that once it was behind the chest protector, it was a dead ball."  [The coach thinks it should've been a C3K.]


This league is OBR; assume there were 2 outs, R1, 3-2 count.  After reviewing the relevant rules, including 2.00 CATCH and FOUL TIP, 5.09(g) and Comment, 6.05(b) and Comment, I know this was not a "foul tip" because it was not legally caught; it is merely a foul ball.

 

My question is based on the "award" 5.09(g) Comment:  should R1 be awarded 2B, and BR to 1B?  I would say no, because once the ball was struck, the ball was no longer a "pitched ball" for definitional purposes.  Thoughts?  I am also wondering if one of the rules about using equipment to catch a ball may useful, but I don't have time to check them right now.

[th3]

i think i would rule foul ball - dead ball and no base awards

[Mike Prince]

I have a foul ball, play on with a 3-2 count and R1.  If the foul had hit the umpire or lodged in his equipment, this is also a foul ball with no advance.

 

If a pitched ball lodges in the catcher's equipment, and it's ball four or strike three, the batter gets first and the runners advance.  If not ball four or strike 3 then the runners advance one base and the batter stays.

[maven]

A foul ball is a dead ball. I don't care what happens to a dead ball (lodged, lands in a puddle, swallowed by a whale, etc.).

 

Treat it like any other foul ball. Batter still at 3-2, runners return, etc.

[Rich Ives]

The wording, but not the meaning, is changed somewhat in the current MLBUM:

 

Remember - the ball was live when it entered the catcher's gear because up to that point it could still have been legally caught.

 

"When a live ball enters a player's uniform or the catcher's gear, the ball

is to be ruled dead and no subsequent outs can be obtained by the defense. The umpire is then
directed to employ common sense and fairness and place the runners such that the act of the ball
becoming dead is nullified. The umpire may not, however, enforce any outs that he thinks may
have occurred had the ball remained live. Outs occurring before the ball went out of play stand."

[CricketChapman]

The wording, but not the meaning, is changed somewhat in the current MLBUM:

 

Remember - the ball was live when it entered the catcher's gear because up to that point it could still have been legally caught.

 

"When a live ball enters a player's uniform or the catcher's gear, the ball

is to be ruled dead and no subsequent outs can be obtained by the defense. The umpire is then

directed to employ common sense and fairness and place the runners such that the act of the ball

becoming dead is nullified. The umpire may not, however, enforce any outs that he thinks may

have occurred had the ball remained live. Outs occurring before the ball went out of play stand."

 

Rich, is this MLBUM 2012 or 13?  I only have 2012 - can you tell me which page/rule this was on?  Thank you, sir.

[Rich Ives]

The wording, but not the meaning, is changed somewhat in the current MLBUM:

 

Remember - the ball was live when it entered the catcher's gear because up to that point it could still have been legally caught.

 

"When a live ball enters a player's uniform or the catcher's gear, the ball

is to be ruled dead and no subsequent outs can be obtained by the defense. The umpire is then

directed to employ common sense and fairness and place the runners such that the act of the ball

becoming dead is nullified. The umpire may not, however, enforce any outs that he thinks may

have occurred had the ball remained live. Outs occurring before the ball went out of play stand."

 

Rich, is this MLBUM 2012 or 13?  I only have 2012 - can you tell me which page/rule this was on?  Thank you, sir.

 

Page 12 in both 2012 and 2013

[UmpJM]

Foul ball, runners return.

 

JM

[Rich Ives]

Foul ball, runners return.

 

JM

 

Why?

 

Live ball went into the catcher's gear.

[UmpJM]

By definition, any batted ball that goes "sharp and direct" to the cather's mitt and is not caught is a foul ball.

 

A foul ball went into the catcher's gear.

 

Think about it. Any batted ball that goes out of play without ever getting near fair territory is nothing more than a foul ball.

 

And a "foul tip" is a special definition of "catch" - not a special definition of fair/foul.

 

Foul. Runners return.

 

JM

[CricketChapman]

By definition, any batted ball that goes "sharp and direct" to the cather's mitt and is not caught is a foul ball.

 

A foul ball went into the catcher's gear.

 

Think about it. Any batted ball that goes out of play without ever getting near fair territory is nothing more than a foul ball.

 

And a "foul tip" is a special definition of "catch" - not a special definition of fair/foul.

 

Foul. Runners return.

 

JM

 

But the ball was not "foul" when it hit the catcher's chest protector (after it had first struck the mitt); it was not "foul" because the catcher could still legally catch the ball before it touched the ground.

 

Here's how I broke it down:

 

'A "Foul Tip" is defined as "a batted ball that goes sharp and direct from the bat to the catcher’s hands and is legally caught. It is not a foul tip unless caught and any foul tip that is caught is a strike, and the ball is in play. It is not a catch if it is a rebound, unless the ball has first touched the catcher’s glove or hand."  OBR 2.00 FOUL TIP (emphasis added).

A ball is "Legally caught" when it is "in the catcher’s glove before the ball touches the ground. It is not legal if the ball lodges in his clothing or paraphernalia; or if it touches the umpire and is caught by the catcher on the rebound."  OBR 6.05(b) Comment (emphasis added).

Further, "when a live ball enters a player's uniform or the catcher's gear, the ball

is to be ruled dead and no subsequent outs can be obtained by the defense. The umpire is then directed to employ common sense and fairness and place the runners such that the act of the ball becoming dead is nullified. The umpire may not, however, enforce any outs that he thinks may have occurred had the ball remained live."  MLBUM 2013, Interpretation No. 20, p. 12.

 

In the case-at-hand, the ball was alive as the catcher attempted to "corral" it.  Once the ball went inside his chest protector, it could no longer be legally caught and could not be ruled a "foul tip."  Thus, the ball became dead at that moment, and the umpire, in using "common sense and fairness," should deem this a "foul ball."'

[UmpJM]

cricket,

 

The ball was most definitely "foul" the instant it touched the catcher's person.

 

All batted balls must either ultimately be foul or fair. That one certainly wasn't "fair", so it must have been foul.

 

"Foul tip" is a special definition of a "catch", not a redefinition of foul/fair.

 

JM

[maven]

The MLBUM ruling doesn't change anything. Even if you rule that a live ball became lodged, it would still be treated like any other foul ball.

[Rich Ives]

cricket,

 

The ball was most definitely "foul" the instant it touched the catcher's person.

 

All batted balls must either ultimately be foul or fair. That one certainly wasn't "fair", so it must have been foul.

 

"Foul tip" is a special definition of a "catch", not a redefinition of foul/fair.

 

JM

 

Where did I say it was a fair ball or that it should be considered as a fair ball?  Don't waste time looking.

 

Where does the "live ball into the catcher's gear" ruling say it only applies to a fair ball? It doesn't.

 

The ball was live because it was a foul tip still catchable at the time.

 

It went into the catcher's gear.

 

Now your ruling may be to treat it as a foul ball, but it's because of the live ball into the gear rule. BUT because it's ruled based on the live ball ruling, you could also just rule it a strike and rule that a stealing runner had it made and give him the advance base.

[mstaylor]

It was a foul tip, it touched his glove first, so it hitting his chest doesn't not take away the tip status. Once it went in his protecter it became a live ball lodged, no longer catchable. A foul tip that isn't caught becomes a foul ball. 

[noumpere]

 and the umpire, in using "common sense and fairness," should deem this a "foul ball."'

 

I thought I posted this before, but I don't think "common sense and fairness" is needed here, even though it gets you to the same answer.  It's a foul ball because it meets the definition of 2-Foul Ball and does NOT meet the definition of 2-Catch

[mstaylor]

That is point I was trying to make. You don't need any special interps, just the rules.

[Mike Prince]

It was a foul tip, it touched his glove first, so it hitting his chest doesn't not take away the tip status. Once it went in his protecter it became a live ball lodged, no longer catchable. A foul tip that isn't caught becomes a foul ball. 

 

So this translates to (I am asking not telling):

 

- It was a foul tip off the bat

- When it deflected off F2's glove and went to his chest, it was no longer a foul tip

- It was not caught so it is a foul ball

 

The part about going into his protector threw me off.

[UmpJM]

Mike,

 

Not EXACTLY...

 

- It was a "tipped foul" off the bat

- When it deflected off F2's glove an went to his chest, we still don't know if it's going to end up a "foul tip" or a "foul ball"

- When it entered the catcher's chest protector, it could no longer be legally caught, so it became an "uncaught foul".

 

JM

[Mike Prince]

Got it.  Didn't mean to confuse "foul tip" with "tipped foul", I know better than that.

 

Mike's post confused me a bit (which is easy) so I wanted to make sure I had it right.

[Jocko]

Foul. Send runners back. You cannot allow them to advance if they were stealing. It's a foul, same as any other. I agree with MST. No interp necessary, just definitions straight out of the rule book.

[Rich Ives]

That is point I was trying to make. You don't need any special interps, just the rules.

 

So the MLBUM interp (been there several years now) is meaningless? 

 

Which other ones are?

 

The people who own the rules say this is how it is interpreted.

 

Or can you just accept whichever interps you personally choose to accept?

[SoCal Lurker]

The ball was live because it was a foul tip still catchable at the time.

 

It went into the catcher's gear.

 

Now your ruling may be to treat it as a foul ball, but it's because of the live ball into the gear rule. BUT because it's ruled based on the live ball ruling, you could also just rule it a strike and rule that a stealing runner had it made and give him the advance base.

 

 

I'm completely with you until I get to what Imarked in red:  if the catcher didn't catch it, how does common sense get us to anything other than treating it with the same result as a foul ball?  (Or are you just saying it's a judgment call and an umpire that exercised that judgment would not wrong by rule because it is a judgment call?)

[bam]

The wording, but not the meaning, is changed somewhat in the current MLBUM:

 

Remember - the ball was live when it entered the catcher's gear because up to that point it could still have been legally caught.

 

"When a live ball enters a player's uniform or the catcher's gear, the ball

is to be ruled dead and no subsequent outs can be obtained by the defense. The umpire is then

directed to employ common sense and fairness and place the runners such that the act of the ball

becoming dead is nullified. The umpire may not, however, enforce any outs that he thinks may

have occurred had the ball remained live. Outs occurring before the ball went out of play stand."

 

I can't imagine this interpretation applies to lodged balls in foul territory on a pitched ball.  I could use my imagination to apply this to all sorts of situations with thrown/batted balls, but this situation clearly calls for a foul ball. 

 

I'm sure rats will say otherwise, but I can't see this needing interpretation. 

[UmpJM]

Foul ball, runners return.

 

JM

 

Why?

 

Live ball went into the catcher's gear.

 

Rich, 

 

Because that is the ONLY ruling supported by "common sense and fairness".

 

You really don't have an argument here.

 

JM