new fed hybrid balk

[noumpere]

I thnk FED wants this to be a balk as soon as the pithcer takes this position.

 

Now if your area wants it called differently or a t a different time, then follow that of course.

[mstaylor]

I thnk FED wants this to be a balk as soon as the pithcer takes this position.

 

Now if your area wants it called differently or a t a different time, then follow that of course.

Although the stance is illegal for either position I can't see calling a balk until he either sets or starts a wind-up. As already noted, he has the option to step off and fixing it. 

[bam]

I thnk FED wants this to be a balk as soon as the pithcer takes this position.

 

Now if your area wants it called differently or a t a different time, then follow that of course.

Although the stance is illegal for either position I can't see calling a balk until he either sets or starts a wind-up. As already noted, he has the option to step off and fixing it. 

Why does he have to step off? He's not in. legal position, either wind up or set, according to FED.

Another POE emphasis this year is getting lineup cards in every division from varsity down to MS. I don't know which is going to be a bigger PITA. Well find out this week.

[mstaylor]

1.To get himself legal he would have to step off to change the stance. Anything else would be illegal to do. 

2. Line-ups should be a non-starter. I do games from MS to VAR and have no problem getting them. The only problem I have had is getting 100 different cards, some good, some bad. I had one manager that owned a restaurant and his line-ups were on guest checks. I have gotten the super small tear outs from the scorebook, about 1 1/2 x 2 inches. Try to manage that sucker. To fix the problem we print and distribute our own line-up cards. 

[bam]

1.To get himself legal he would have to step off to change the stance. Anything else would be illegal to do. 

. 

 

My point was that if FED deems this to be an illegal stance, then there's no penalty for stepping incorrectly out of an illegal stance.  I realize that's a minor point, but we picked the same nits with that IBB quesiton on the FED test.

 

If I've got to enforce this, I will.  But what I won't do is balk a kid for not stepping off with his pivot foot to correct the stance.  He's gaining no advantage.  Heck - I try not to see it when a kid gets into the windup after a base hit then steps off with the wrong foot to channge to the stretch.  Just becasue I know it's a technical balk doesn't mean I have to call it.  That kind of call makes me look bad. Rules gurus may not agree, but these are the ways to ruin a perfectly good game.   

[mstaylor]

Whether it is a legal wind-up position or the hybrid, if he steps off he needs to do it with his pivot foot. If he doesn't then he has started his pitch. So you have a RH pitcher with his right foot on the rubber but his left foot in front of the rubber. You should recognize this as an illegal stance, so now he wants to fix it, he steps back with his left foot, which you say you are going to allow. The problem is by stepping back with his left foot, that is now time of pitch and a ball/balk. You have to call this, it is a balk. 

Now, you have the same pitcher, hybrid stance, but this time he is trying to draw a runner into breaking. He steps back legally and looks the runner back. Although the stance was illegal, he never tarted to deliver or come set. To me I am not going to say anything until he does one of those two things. 

[Jocko]

@Bam - I agree. Outside HSV I don't generally call 'technical' balks. If he's OBVIOULY stepping off, I'm not balking him because he raised the wrong foot 1st, realized his mistake, and then stepped off with the correct foot. Not gonna be THAT guy. Also, and I may be alone here, I make ALL HCs give me lineups. Even in tournaments. I want their lineup in conjuction with my game card. If there's discrepancy, I handle it without going to the scorekeeper. They're prone to mistakes as well. Get lineups at the pplate from everyone/every game. My S.O.P.

@alan2703 - I understand the thinking, but after you warn, and start calling it, you have to keep calling it. Don't bail HCs cookies outta the fire by not doing your job. If it's truly getting out of hand, he needs to make a change, not you. And what fans think/say.

@noumpere - How often do you see F1 change from set to windup or vice versa? Are you calling balks if he engagse in windup, someone yells step off, and he's not 100% legal in his mechanics? I'm not calling hybrid stance balks until he either sets or commits to pitch. Until then it's nothing and here's why. With noone on, who cares before TOP? With runners on, he's illegally gaininga an advantage with hybrid by keeping them closer to the bag. When Fed clarifies, my opinion may change. Until then, I'm staying right here.

[mstaylor]

So let me see if I am reading correctly. The pitcher,with runners, takes a hybrid stance and goes to step off to correct but does it with his free foot instead of his pivot foot. In this case you are calling nothing? If he steps off to correct his stance with his wrong foot, that is now TOP for a wind-up, balk. Lets approach this another way, hybrid stance and a pick, what are you doing?

[TNCoach]

We had this called on our pitcher the other night with no one on base.  PU went out to F1.  I saw him talking to him.  He came to me and all I said was, "Free foot in front of mound?"  He stopped, nodded, and went on without further explanation.  We hadn't gotten word that it was going to be looked at closer.  I have noticed most all of our pitchers do it at varying degrees but no one else has been called on it.

How close do you all call it?  I was watching one of our pitchers yesterday in practice.  His heel was literally half an inch in front of the rubber.

[TNCoach]

On the lineup cards, I coached MS ball for 4 years.  I always used a lineup card.  Several in our league acted surprised when the umpire asked for a card (not all teams in our league were in the state association, so when they played us we were responsible for an umpire -- we used arbiter -- while the other team just got someone to ump, having passed a test or not). 

 

Obviously, in our varsity hs games, we always use lineup cards.  In JV, we don't.  We play JV after varsity.  We bat everyone whether it be 9 or 12.  If we are sending someone into pitch, we just let them warm-up and skip their spot in the lineup, inserting them when they come back to the dugout out of the bullpen.

[Richvee]

We had this called on our pitcher the other night with no one on base.  PU went out to F1.  I saw him talking to him.  He came to me and all I said was, "Free foot in front of mound?"  He stopped, nodded, and went on without further explanation.  We hadn't gotten word that it was going to be looked at closer.  I have noticed most all of our pitchers do it at varying degrees but no one else has been called on it.

How close do you all call it?  I was watching one of our pitchers yesterday in practice.  His heel was literally half an inch in front of the rubber.

I've got a handful of HS games in now, and I've seen a lot of F1s with that free foot slightly in front of the rubber....and I mean slightly. Maybe their heel is actually touching the rubber, maybe it's an inch or so in front. I'm certainly not going to pick nits here. I'll warn and enforce if the free foot is obviously in front of the rubber.... in front to the point where everyone in the ballpark can clearly see the foot's in front. So far I haven't seen that. 

[TNCoach]

We have one kid who does it all the time and only had it called by one this year. He has struggled with mechanics since pre-season practice and watched youtube videos of Tim Lincecum. He adopted his stance -- knowing the wind-up is not legal.

 

It looks like this... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VWi6rZRTGM

[mstaylor]

And that is completely illegal. His free foot isn't close to being behind the rubber, that has to balked at the Fed level. He can use the same stance, turn slightly more toward the plate and slide the free foot beside the rubber and get the same desired result. 

[TNCoach]

I agree it is illegal. He has only had one umpire call him on it in 6 appearances.

[mstaylor]

But since you know it is wrong, shouldn't you just fix it. If he is struggling, wouldn't changing in a game be worse than in practice?

[IABlue]

1.To get himself legal he would have to step off to change the stance. Anything else would be illegal to do. 

2. Line-ups should be a non-starter. I do games from MS to VAR and have no problem getting them. The only problem I have had is getting 100 different cards, some good, some bad. I had one manager that owned a restaurant and his line-ups were on guest checks. I have gotten the super small tear outs from the scorebook, about 1 1/2 x 2 inches. Try to manage that sucker. To fix the problem we print and distribute our own line-up cards. 

I don't even carry my lineup card holder and pen onto the field for sub-varsity ball.  I will flat-out tell a coach in freshman or JV ball that tries to hand me a card that I don't want it.  What's the point?  Our JV games are a lot like what the coach from Tennessee describes.

[TNCoach]

But since you know it is wrong, shouldn't you just fix it. If he is struggling, wouldn't changing in a game be worse than in practice?

 

I've reminded him in side sessions, but I am just the assistant.  If he continues to do it, and then he gets called on it, he will struggle and get pulled.  I am only going to tell a pitcher so many times. 

[Mike Prince]

But since you know it is wrong, shouldn't you just fix it. If he is struggling, wouldn't changing in a game be worse than in practice?

 

I've reminded him in side sessions, but I am just the assistant.  If he continues to do it, and then he gets called on it, he will struggle and get pulled.  I am only going to tell a pitcher so many times. 

 

Well then do your job and keep telling him.  Not trying to be rude, but the "assistant" line is a cop-out, you are there to help him and fixing his setup is definitely helping.

[TNCoach]

 

But since you know it is wrong, shouldn't you just fix it. If he is struggling, wouldn't changing in a game be worse than in practice?

 

I've reminded him in side sessions, but I am just the assistant.  If he continues to do it, and then he gets called on it, he will struggle and get pulled.  I am only going to tell a pitcher so many times. 

 

Well then do your job and keep telling him.  Not trying to be rude, but the "assistant" line is a cop-out, you are there to help him and fixing his setup is definitely helping.

 

Normally, I would agree with you but I am in a situation where I was placed as an assistant coach and have little to no authority/duties in working with players.  I am mostly there to monitor.  I have very little input as to what happens.  I just give my two cents and that is that.

[mstaylor]

 

 

 

But since you know it is wrong, shouldn't you just fix it. If he is struggling, wouldn't changing in a game be worse than in practice?

 

I've reminded him in side sessions, but I am just the assistant.  If he continues to do it, and then he gets called on it, he will struggle and get pulled.  I am only going to tell a pitcher so many times. 

 

Well then do your job and keep telling him.  Not trying to be rude, but the "assistant" line is a cop-out, you are there to help him and fixing his setup is definitely helping.

 

Normally, I would agree with you but I am in a situation where I was placed as an assistant coach and have little to no authority/duties in working with players.  I am mostly there to monitor.  I have very little input as to what happens.  I just give my two cents and that is that.

 

I had a pitcher that was doing some small illegal things in his set. I explained to him how to fix it, his dad kept refixing him. I went to the umpires and told them he is illegal and to balk him if he does it. Even with my own team I still feel that a pitcher won't listen until he sees runners moving up because he was being a hardhead. 

[mstaylor]

 

1.To get himself legal he would have to step off to change the stance. Anything else would be illegal to do. 

2. Line-ups should be a non-starter. I do games from MS to VAR and have no problem getting them. The only problem I have had is getting 100 different cards, some good, some bad. I had one manager that owned a restaurant and his line-ups were on guest checks. I have gotten the super small tear outs from the scorebook, about 1 1/2 x 2 inches. Try to manage that sucker. To fix the problem we print and distribute our own line-up cards. 

I don't even carry my lineup card holder and pen onto the field for sub-varsity ball.  I will flat-out tell a coach in freshman or JV ball that tries to hand me a card that I don't want it.  What's the point?  Our JV games are a lot like what the coach from Tennessee describes.

 

You disdain for subvarsity is unfortunate. I know some guys don't want to work anything below varsity, that's their option, but to opening disrespect the game and the participants is inexcusable.  

[Scratch Franzeo]

Sorry, I'm a little late to this discussion ...

Our association asked that we discuss this POE at the plate meeting before each game, including the pre-season scrimmages. Our president explained it is, "preventive officiating ... If its stopped early, we shouldn't have a problem throughout the season."

I still make mention of this POE during each plate meeting. To date, I've had a few coaches play dumb, but have nothad a problem once the game began.

[mstaylor]

I can understand doing that in preseason, once the season starts I disagree. You have to do as instructed but to me, the coach can read that one page just as easily as we can. 

[24sdad]

Son's game last night.  LHP for other team on the mound.  Pretty much every MLB team is represented at games where this kid pitches.  Through five innings he is throwing from the wind-up exactly like Lincecum's illegal stance above.  In the sixth, we load the bases and BU stops the game to have the kid change to a legal wind up position, including a minute or so of instruction on what is proper and what is not.  I don't know if it screwed with the kid or not, but he ended up just pitching from the stretch and we score two runs.  Both teams are pissed off.  Our team for not balking him and the "coaching" involved and their team for letting it go the previous five innings and then making him change with bases loaded.

 

All of the teams in our association area received the same guidelines as we did before the season started.  We were instructed to call an illegal pitch without warning.

 

There are better ways to handle this.  Address it immediately.  If you want to discreetly tell him to get in a legal stance as he warms up, ok.  If you want to call an illegal pitch the first time he toes the rubber, ok.    Just don't wait 5 1/3 innings to do something and then provide a pitching clinic at the same time.

[mstaylor]

Son's game last night.  LHP for other team on the mound.  Pretty much every MLB team is represented at games where this kid pitches.  Through five innings he is throwing from the wind-up exactly like Lincecum's illegal stance above.  In the sixth, we load the bases and BU stops the game to have the kid change to a legal wind up position, including a minute or so of instruction on what is proper and what is not.  I don't know if it screwed with the kid or not, but he ended up just pitching from the stretch and we score two runs.  Both teams are pissed off.  Our team for not balking him and the "coaching" involved and their team for letting it go the previous five innings and then making him change with bases loaded.

 

All of the teams in our association area received the same guidelines as we did before the season started.  We were instructed to call an illegal pitch without warning.

 

There are better ways to handle this.  Address it immediately.  If you want to discreetly tell him to get in a legal stance as he warms up, ok.  If you want to call an illegal pitch the first time he toes the rubber, ok.    Just don't wait 5 1/3 innings to do something and then provide a pitching clinic at the same time.

Agreed, deal with it early or leave it alone. Why didn't your coach complain earlier that he was illegal?