I think F2's gonna get tossed - video

[mstaylor]

Each official has to make his own decision, I don't have a problem, others may not feel comfortable. I work games with many military, county police and state police officers, I assure you they wouldn't have a problem.  

[johnnyg08]

Unless F2 now gets hurt because your tackled him.  Now you're 100% liable for injuring a player.  

 

Not me.  No thanks.

I don't see that anyone said tackle him.  Just get in his way and use your arms so he needs to think about what hes doing if he tries to go around you.

 

 

The video certainly shows a tackle.

Each official has to make his own decision, I don't have a problem, others may not feel comfortable. I work games with many military, county police and state police officers, I assure you they wouldn't have a problem.  

 

 

They are trained and certified in use-of-force and restraint techniques. 

[mstaylor]

So am I, but others may not and will decide not to restrain the catcher. No problem. The tackle was between the players, the umpire simply wrapped him up and walked him away from the situation. 

The only time that backfired on me was with a wrestling coach. He was bent over an injured kid yelling at the ref holding the kid's head in traction. I asked him three times to remove himself so the paramedics could work. He cussed me three times so I grabbed him and stood him up. The problem was my arms only got just inside his armpits and when I stood him up he was six to eight inches taller and 75 lbs heavier. I know many holds, he is knows how to break all of them. 

[bam]

Regarding the altercation, I break up too many fights / scrums in the months of September - April to say that I would not have instinctively jumped in once it was clear F2 was going to go after the runner. I think at least intervening solely by stepping in F2's way in an attempt to physically prevent F2 from going after the runner, especially since his back was turned, is completely reasonable. Although since there is no "3rd man in" rule in baseball, if the situation got larger than just F2 and the runner, I'm bailing.

 

While I understand that everybody is sensitive about physical contact with players because of our lawsuit-happy society, and I understand that some have no interest in physically intervening in a confrontation, PU single-handedly prevented a mass brawl - a la Canada-Mexico - from breaking out simply by corralling the catcher before he could go after a defenseless opponent. I don't think anybody should be faulting him for that. If he doesn't remove F2 from the situation, you likely end up with a massive dog-pile, presenting serious risk of injury for all involved. Believe it or not, I actually see greater potential for legal action if the catcher had've been allowed to wail away on the runner after going right past PU, unrestrained.

 

You're not waiting for your partner before jumping into an altercation?  Yikes! 

[bam]

 

Regarding the altercation, I break up too many fights / scrums in the months of September - April to say that I would not have instinctively jumped in once it was clear F2 was going to go after the runner. I think at least intervening solely by stepping in F2's way in an attempt to physically prevent F2 from going after the runner, especially since his back was turned, is completely reasonable. Although since there is no "3rd man in" rule in baseball, if the situation got larger than just F2 and the runner, I'm bailing.

 

While I understand that everybody is sensitive about physical contact with players because of our lawsuit-happy society, and I understand that some have no interest in physically intervening in a confrontation, PU single-handedly prevented a mass brawl - a la Canada-Mexico - from breaking out simply by corralling the catcher before he could go after a defenseless opponent. I don't think anybody should be faulting him for that. If he doesn't remove F2 from the situation, you likely end up with a massive dog-pile, presenting serious risk of injury for all involved. Believe it or not, I actually see greater potential for legal action if the catcher had've been allowed to wail away on the runner after going right past PU, unrestrained.

 

You're not waiting for your partner before jumping into an altercation?  Yikes! 

 

Well, define altercation.

 

If there's no fight yet, like one guy is about to go after another (like the catcher charging after the runner in the video), or two guys are mouthing off daring the other to throw the first punch, yea, I'd go in alone. I'd have about 2 seconds before the cavalry arrives and a brawl breaks out, so there's no time to wait for anyone else. All I'd be doing is trying to intervene and get some breathing room between them so punches aren't thrown. If I were to tie one guy up, that puts him at a serious disadvantage if the other guy throws a rabbit punch. Even in hockey, I'm usually the better skating of the linesman, and the first to arrive to a scrum, sometimes by several seconds. If everyone still has their gloves on, I don't stop and wait on the perimeter for the other linesman, I just go right in.  I've been in scrums as a player and broken them up as an official; separating players doesn't bother me and I don't fear for my safety.

 

I did this exact thing in a HS game 2 springs ago. R2 was a kid playing on the team just to miss 5th period and F6 was a legitimate ball player. Something happened behind me during a pitch and I saw people starting to come out of the dugouts. I turn around and R2 and F6 are just about face to face, talking smack. I weaseled my way in between them, separated them without grabbing or restraining anybody, and by the time everybody got there, all they did was pull their players further away.

 

On the other hand, if the altercation is an all-out fight, I'm not going in period. 48 other guys are bearing down on the fight about to jump in, and like above, without my partner, whoever I tie up is now at a disadvantage.

 

This is an interesting discussion though.

 

Hypothetical situation under FED rules. Team A winning state semi-final game 9-0. Team B F6 initiates a physical confrontation with R2 from Team A who is not fighting back to avoid being suspended for the championship. Players from Team A in the dugout do not leave so as to not be ejected per that new (stupid) FED rule for leaving the dugout during an altercation, so as not to forfeit the game due to lack of eligible players. Meanwhile, the runner from Team A has turtled, while the player from team B stands over him, attempting to beat him into the ground.

 

You're BU. What do you do?

 

I was talking hockey.....

[JaxRolo]

Having gone to the "sandbox" in the military I have been trained in restraint and use of force techniques. BUT on the diamond I won't lay a finger on anyone.

For one, we are told not to.

Two, I value my personal property. Too many sue happy people out there.

[MidAmUmp]

I think the plate umpire probably overreacted by getting that physical, but he removed the problem from the incident which probably caused the situation to calm much quicker than had the catcher not been removed.  I'm not going to bear hug anyone, but I don't have any problem physically "persuading" someone to move...on deck batters, batter in the box on a wild pitch/play at the plate, etc.  I think I probably would have grabbed him, got him behind me and started to walk him away from the situation, pushing him away with my ass, keeping everyone else in front of me.  Not 100% sure though.

 

I will say none of us know how we will handle a fight/bench clear until we've actually been in one, two, three or more.  I've seen a lot of guys talk a good game and then crawl underneath the nearest base until the dust settles, then come riding in on their white horse to save the day.  You know...the "in the rear with the gear" guys.

[SnareDrum]

I've learned to 1) impede (get in their way, talk them down), then 2) restrain if possible, but not to the point of tackling or locking a head or limb. When those fail, stand back and start memorizing jersey numbers while the coaches (hopefully) do their job. The three I've been involved in 1 and 2 worked on two. The third was just all hell breaking loose, but the coaches did their jobs and we got it back under control after a half-minute or so. There was a fourth, but I was player and smack dab in the middle of it!

 

When it all starts to go down, it's a split second decision to either do something, or nothing. I'll take the side of "something". As for the OP, yeah, F2 is gone, and PU handled it pretty well.

[ump54]

As R2 scores, F2 is on front left edge of plate.  As R1 comes for the plate, F2 has stepped in front of the plate to wave off a relay from SS; runner does more than just incidentally slide into C, he has his left arm out and tags C in the cup (snapshots from video below).  Runner angles himself to slide from foul territory towards C sliding to the inside of the line, no need for that, he has plenty of room to the outside.  R1 ejected for malicious contact and F2 ejected for the retaliation.

[Magic]

I am dumping the Catcher, for the body slam, the runner for the retaliation, and 3rd and SS for leaving their positions during the altercation. Pitcher belonged there. Also anyone else who leaves their position or comes out of the dugout gets dumped as well. Of course I only umpire High School and those are the rules.

[Engineer]

Since it looks like basically everyone came out of both dugouts, what happens? Double Forfeit?

[JaxRolo]

Since it looks like basically everyone came out of both dugouts, what happens? Double Forfeit?

Yes. We just had that happen at a Varsity tournament.

[JaxRolo]

So what happens in a blowout when only one bench clears in an obvious attempt to start an altercation and they jump the few players from the other team on the field? Are they just supposed to sit there and watch their teammate get pummelled?

Yes

[Sayhey]

My guess is the catcher is going to say he moved over to give the runner room to touch home .he has his hands up and there is no play. Why would the catcher risk injury if there is no play.

Do we know if the uic had a legal slide?

The catcher is ejected for attacking someone from behind.

The runner is also ejected for pushing the umpire in the back while trying to get to the catcher.

I gave the bat toss a 3. I will never put my hands on a player unless he has a bat in his hands and is about to hit someone. You gotta give me a pay raise to break up fights. The coaches can break up the fight. 20 years after the fight it makes a good bar story.

[BigUmpire]

I am trained to handle full grown drunks and not hurt them, I can certainly handle a teenager. 

O so you are qualified to handle post tounament umpire parties?

[mstaylor]

 

I am trained to handle full grown drunks and not hurt them, I can certainly handle a teenager. 

O so you are qualified to handle post tounament umpire parties?

 

And I can double as the DD.