Does this run count

[Mwilcher]

12U USSSA tournament. Bases loaded, 2 outs, 2 strikes. Runner on 3B steals home (left handed pitcher) and slides across plate as pitch is delivered to catcher. Batter moves to back of box to allow runner to allow access to plate. Called strike 3, does the run count?

[Replacematt]

Nope. The batter was put out before reaching first base.

[SnareDrum]

What Matt said...

[Jocko]

You owe the umps an apology?

[semper_fi_72]

12U USSSA tournament. Bases loaded, 2 outs, 2 strikes. Runner on 3B steals home (left handed pitcher) and slides across plate as pitch is delivered to catcher. Batter moves to back of box to allow runner to allow access to plate. Called strike 3, does the run count?

This is a Time of Pitch situation.

At the TOP he was R3.

Batter was retired on the pitch for the 3rd out.

Run can not count because BR never obtained 1B.

[bam]

What kind of an idiot tries this with 2 strikes? 

[Jocko]

The same kind of idiot that has R1 R3 and bunts with no outs. Saw this in a 13u this weekend :

[Rich Ives]

What kind of an idiot tries this with 2 strikes? 

 

One who is 12. They aren't that baseball smart.  Do you think a coach called it? I'd bet he didn't. I'd bet he said "be ready to go" and Andy Airhead only heard "go".  Been there too many times.

[Rich Ives]

The same kind of idiot that puts a has R1 R3 and bunts with no outs. Saw this in a 13u this weekend :

 

That could be worth doing. Depends on the situation and the players involved - especially at that age level where they are probably on a bigger diamond for the first time and are really shaky on defense. Speedy Stan can't hit but he can bunt (trust me there are players like this)? Put the ball in play and watch the fire drill. Betcha you get R3 in 85% of the time.

[Jocko]

Nope. Popped up the bunt (F1 did his job and pitched high in the zone). F2 caught it in flight and doubled off R3. Keep in mind, this is the same HC that put in his 3 subs and then couldn't understand why a starter then couldn't reenter as a sub for another starter in the batting order.

[Mwilcher]

Guys, thanks for all the input with the thread. Just to clarify the situation. Score was 6-5, bottom of 6th, bases loaded with last batter in the order... Defensive coach put in his ace to face this batter, he was throwing BB's (for 12u ball, not sure batter even saw the first two). The manager, who was coaching third sent the kid, looked like a suicide squeeze. Baserunner from 3rd clearly crossed the plate before the ball. So, had this one sailed as a ball, the run counts and game likely goes into extra innings as a strikeout was eminent.

[Rich Ives]

Guys, thanks for all the input with the thread. Just to clarify the situation. Score was 6-5, bottom of 6th, bases loaded with last batter in the order... Defensive coach put in his ace to face this batter, he was throwing BB's (for 12u ball, not sure batter even saw the first two). The manager, who was coaching third sent the kid, looked like a suicide squeeze. Baserunner from 3rd clearly crossed the plate before the ball. So, had this one sailed as a ball, the run counts and game likely goes into extra innings as a strikeout was eminent.

 

Last inning. You didn't say that. Given that I might send the runner too. Might as well.

[Rich Ives]

Nope. Popped up the bunt (F1 did his job and pitched high in the zone). F2 caught it in flight and doubled off R3. Keep in mind, this is the same HC that put in his 3 subs and then couldn't understand why a starter then couldn't reenter as a sub for another starter in the batting order.

 

The other 15%. Sometimes things blow up in your face. Comes with the territory.

 

If the HC came from LL then I'd grasp why he thought he could put his starter in for another starter. It's legal in LL.

[noumpere]

The same kind of idiot that puts a has R1 R3 and bunts with no outs. Saw this in a 13u this weekend :

 

That could be worth doing. Depends on the situation and the players involved - especially at that age level where they are probably on a bigger diamond for the first time and are really shaky on defense. Speedy Stan can't hit but he can bunt (trust me there are players like this)? Put the ball in play and watch the fire drill. Betcha you get R3 in 85% of the time.

I agree that it can be a good play.  You might get an out but still have 2 runners on base.  It's a risk/reward type of play.

[semper_fi_72]

Guys, thanks for all the input with the thread. Just to clarify the situation. Score was 6-5, bottom of 6th, bases loaded with last batter in the order... Defensive coach put in his ace to face this batter, he was throwing BB's (for 12u ball, not sure batter even saw the first two). The manager, who was coaching third sent the kid, looked like a suicide squeeze. Baserunner from 3rd clearly crossed the plate before the ball. So, had this one sailed as a ball, the run counts and game likely goes into extra innings as a strikeout was eminent.

This makes even less sense.

Bases Loaded, if it was a ball the run would have scored anyway and it would have been tied anyway.

Very dangerous play with 12 year olds.

Batter swings and hits the runner with the bat.

Runner crossed the plate before the pitch got there.  Runner gets hit by pitch and gets hurt and then we have a interference call on the runner.

Batter makes contact with the ball and drives it into the runner.

 

I had the same thing last Saturday. Suicide Squeeze.

F1 stepped off, threw to F2, runner out.

The offensive team was even up by 4 runs and there was no reason to try that play.

12U coaches need to think a little more about what their actions can do.

[Magic]

Guys, thanks for all the input with the thread. Just to clarify the situation. Score was 6-5, bottom of 6th, bases loaded with last batter in the order... Defensive coach put in his ace to face this batter, he was throwing BB's (for 12u ball, not sure batter even saw the first two). The manager, who was coaching third sent the kid, looked like a suicide squeeze. Baserunner from 3rd clearly crossed the plate before the ball. So, had this one sailed as a ball, the run counts and game likely goes into extra innings as a strikeout was eminent.

This makes even less sense.

Bases Loaded, if it was a ball the run would have scored anyway and it would have been tied anyway.

Very dangerous play with 12 year olds.

Batter swings and hits the runner with the bat.

Runner crossed the plate before the pitch got there.  Runner gets hit by pitch and gets hurt and then we have a interference call on the runner.

Batter makes contact with the ball and drives it into the runner.

 

I had the same thing last Saturday. Suicide Squeeze.

F1 stepped off, threw to F2, runner out.

The offensive team was even up by 4 runs and there was no reason to try that play.

12U coaches need to think a little more about what their actions can do.

Why would the run have scored? He said there were 2 strikes. Not a full count. If it is a Ball then we have a 1-2 count no?

[Big Red]

Lou,

From OP, sounds like the batter had 0-2 count, not 3-2, so a ball wouldn't have made a difference here.

 

But, completely agree about the dangerous premise of 12U players executing such a dynamic play, especially if they haven't practiced it. 

After finishing a game last year, I watched on an adjacent field a 12U game that was tied up when a team tried this.  I figured it was coming after the offensive team mgr coaching 3rd calls time and confers with his batter before he's even seen a pitch...his body language indicated he was adamant about the batter doing something.  As batter walks back to the plate, OC starts talking to R3.

Sure enough...F1 goes into windup, R3 breaks for home....batter glances quickly to see R3 coming and vapor locks.  Instead of backing away from the plate in any way, he actually steps ON home plate!  Gets plunked hard in the stomach.  PU correctly calls interference, R3 out and batter stays there with a strike, though he had to be subbed as he couldn't stand up after taking a fastball to the gut.  And for that he was lucky it didn't hit somewhere more critical.

Sometimes don't know who is more clueless at this level...players or coaches!

[Replacematt]

Instead of backing away from the plate in any way, he actually steps ON home plate!  Gets plunked hard in the stomach.  PU correctly calls interference, R3 out and batter stays there with a strike, though he had to be subbed as he couldn't stand up after taking a fastball to the gut.  And for that he was lucky it didn't hit somewhere more critical.

Sometimes don't know who is more clueless at this level...players or coaches!

 

PU was wrong. This is a dead-ball strike. Runners return.

[noumpere]

Guys, thanks for all the input with the thread. Just to clarify the situation. Score was 6-5, bottom of 6th, bases loaded with last batter in the order... Defensive coach put in his ace to face this batter, he was throwing BB's (for 12u ball, not sure batter even saw the first two). The manager, who was coaching third sent the kid, looked like a suicide squeeze. Baserunner from 3rd clearly crossed the plate before the ball. So, had this one sailed as a ball, the run counts and game likely goes into extra innings as a strikeout was eminent.

This makes even less sense.

Bases Loaded, if it was a ball the run would have scored anyway and it would have been tied anyway.

Very dangerous play with 12 year olds.

Batter swings and hits the runner with the bat.

Runner crossed the plate before the pitch got there.  Runner gets hit by pitch and gets hurt and then we have a interference call on the runner.

Batter makes contact with the ball and drives it into the runner.

 

I had the same thing last Saturday. Suicide Squeeze.

F1 stepped off, threw to F2, runner out.

The offensive team was even up by 4 runs and there was no reason to try that play.

12U coaches need to think a little more about what their actions can do.

If the runner getSH*# by the pitch its not interference.

 

Wow.  Lots of wrong rulings in this thread on this play.

[SnareDrum]

Heard about this from a friend of mine a couple of summers ago on this play... 1 out and batter with 2 strikes missed the sign and didn't know R3 was coming. U3K by F2 as R3 and B1 have their own private train wreck. R3 is laid out in front of the plate (never touched) and B1 is on top of him. F2 picks up the ball and calmly tags them both for a double-play.  A very good "Team 1" was apparently trying to pad their run differential in the standings even though they were up by 10 at the time on a not-so-good squad. It was the first of a DH and a pumped up "Team 2" returned the favor by shelling "1" just as bad in the next game... including a couple of squeeze plays when they went up by 10.  My friend said that the opposing coaches had a rather spirited "discussion" during the hand shake line.  Yeah.. it was 12U.

[Big Red]

Instead of backing away from the plate in any way, he actually steps ON home plate!  Gets plunked hard in the stomach.  PU correctly calls interference, R3 out and batter stays there with a strike, though he had to be subbed as he couldn't stand up after taking a fastball to the gut.  And for that he was lucky it didn't hit somewhere more critical.

Sometimes don't know who is more clueless at this level...players or coaches!

 

PU was wrong. This is a dead-ball strike. Runners return.

You're correct Matt...thanks for the clarification.  I didn't think about that, either then when it happened or now recalling the incident.  So indeed, PU incorrectly called it, though nobody said boo about it.  Everybody was jazzed over the kid getting hit in the gut...don't know which sounded worse, the ball actually hitting him (sounded like a watermelon) or the subsequent air being knocked out of him and him gasping/wheezing.

Just goes to show what a dynamic situation that is for everyone involved, especially after reading Snaredrum's post above.

[Big Red]

Had a nagging afterthought to the above discussion regarding interference on a steal of home and realized what it is.  

IF the pitcher disengages the rubber, thus becoming an infielder, and throws home to retire the runner, then the previously mentioned situation (batter stepping into the throw) would be interference, same as if the batter had hit the thrown ball (not a pitch).

[Jocko]

Instead of backing away from the plate in any way, he actually steps ON home plate! Gets plunked hard in the stomach. PU correctly calls interference, R3 out and batter stays there with a strike, though he had to be subbed as he couldn't stand up after taking a fastball to the gut. And for that he was lucky it didn't hit somewhere more critical.Sometimes don't know who is more clueless at this level...players or coaches!

PU was wrong. This is a dead-ball strike. Runners return.I don't have an OBR reference but Fed Case 8-3-1a "With R1/R2/R3 and one out R3 attempts to steal home. With a 1-2 count, the pitch hits R3 while the ball is in the strike zone. RULING: Ball becomes dead immediately and batter is out because of the 3rd strike. All baserunners are awarded one base from TOP and R1 scores. (5-1-1a 6-1-4, 8-1-1 note 1, 9-1-1-a)"

*I changed the R1,2,&3 for carity and omitted the a) b) option to be concise.

So if there were a 2-0 count, there are no outs, R3 scores, all other runners advance 1, and B5 has a 2-1 count.

Does this seem completely effed up to anyone else?

[SoCal Lurker]

Heard about this from a friend of mine a couple of summers ago on this play... 1 out and batter with 2 strikes missed the sign and didn't know R3 was coming. U3K by F2 as R3 and B1 have their own private train wreck. R3 is laid out in front of the plate (never touched) and B1 is on top of him. F2 picks up the ball and calmly tags them both for a double-play.  A very good "Team 1" was apparently trying to pad their run differential in the standings even though they were up by 10 at the time on a not-so-good squad. It was the first of a DH and a pumped up "Team 2" returned the favor by shelling "1" just as bad in the next game... including a couple of squeeze plays when they went up by 10.  My friend said that the opposing coaches had a rather spirited "discussion" during the hand shake line.  Yeah.. it was 12U.

 

One of the reasons run differential (especially if not capped) can be a poor tiebreaker . . .

[noumpere]

 

Instead of backing away from the plate in any way, he actually steps ON home plate! Gets plunked hard in the stomach. PU correctly calls interference, R3 out and batter stays there with a strike, though he had to be subbed as he couldn't stand up after taking a fastball to the gut. And for that he was lucky it didn't hit somewhere more critical.Sometimes don't know who is more clueless at this level...players or coaches!

PU was wrong. This is a dead-ball strike. Runners return. I don't have an OBR reference but Fed Case 8-3-1a "With R1/R2/R3 and one out R3 attempts to steal home. With a 1-2 count, the pitch hits R3 while the ball is in the strike zone. RULING: Ball becomes dead immediately and batter is out because of the 3rd strike. All baserunners are awarded one base from TOP and R1 scores. (5-1-1a 6-1-4, 8-1-1 note 1, 9-1-1-a)"

*I changed the R1,2,&3 for carity and omitted the a) b) option to be concise.

So if there were a 2-0 count, there are no outs, R3 scores, all other runners advance 1, and B5 has a 2-1 count.

Does this seem completely effed up to anyone else?

No it doesnt seem effed up and its the same ruling in all codes.  the pitch counts (ball or strike), the run scores, runners advance.  The pro reference is 5.09(h)

[cyclonehokiece]

Heard about this from a friend of mine a couple of summers ago on this play... 1 out and batter with 2 strikes missed the sign and didn't know R3 was coming. U3K by F2 as R3 and B1 have their own private train wreck. R3 is laid out in front of the plate (never touched) and B1 is on top of him. F2 picks up the ball and calmly tags them both for a double-play.  A very good "Team 1" was apparently trying to pad their run differential in the standings even though they were up by 10 at the time on a not-so-good squad. It was the first of a DH and a pumped up "Team 2" returned the favor by shelling "1" just as bad in the next game... including a couple of squeeze plays when they went up by 10.  My friend said that the opposing coaches had a rather spirited "discussion" during the hand shake line.  Yeah.. it was 12U.

 

One of the reasons run differential (especially if not capped) can be a poor tiebreaker . . .

And the reason it is capped in most tiebreakers in games I work.