juicing

[Jocko]

This month's ESPN Magazine has an interesting article by Buster Olney. In it, he outlines why he WILL vote to enshrine McGwire, Sosa, Clemens, and (gulp) Bonds. It's interesting in that he blames the system for creating the mess, not the players for juicing. Since owners, sponsors, media, etc. made millions off the accomplishments of the 'roiders, he contends that the players aren't solely to be punished. Until the big wheels give the $ back, he vows to vote for the cheaters.

What say ye, brethren? Olney is a baseball afficianado. Is he right?

[yawetag]

Olney's reasoning is the same given by apologetics of NCAA players that take bribes: "Blame the system, not the players." Screw it. The players knew what they were doing and they got caught. It's safe to say that if they were never caught, the actions would have been continuted, as it has in recent years.

[UmpTTS43]

During the time when it all came to light, it wasn't illegal to use supplements such as steroids. Now it is and there are consequences. Since drugs hit the street, there were always some players that were using them, whether it was speed, greenies, coke, caffine, steroids. Not saying it is right, just not illegal.

[Umpire in Chief]

I've heard this argument in favor of the users. I've also heard that because we will never know who really did or did not use we can't hold it against the known users because an unknown user might end up getting in. :WTF

[Called3rdStrike]

Roids or not Bonds, McGwire, Sosa and likes could smash the baseball. That hasn't to be given some kind of credit.

[Umpire in Chief]

I loved that era of baseball it was exciting. And I do give them credit for helping revive the game after the players strike. But I was naive to the cheating going on.

[Jocko]

I'll take Maris over Bonds ANYDAY and 3 times tomorrow. He was struggling with serious issues, had a child born, his nerver caused his hair to fall out in clumps, he smoked 3 packs a day, and played the season of his career. Don't hand me a load of that garbage about how they could crush the ball. We'll never know what THEY were capable of sans the roids. THE SS HR RECORD IS STILL 61!!! :fuel:

[Called3rdStrike]

They also played in two different eras. I bet Maris rarely seen a pitch over 85. Those guys are seeing that every day.

[carolinablue]

When Bonds was in the prime of his "roid" ball he could shank one and get it out. Baseball history is as sacred as the game itself. Those players have marred that permanently. Not fair to the guys who did it right.

[Jocko]

They also played in two different eras. I bet Maris rarely seen a pitch over 85. Those guys are seeing that every day.

from baseballfever.com

Walter Johnson and Nap Rucker were timed by the Remington Arms Factory in 1912. The electronic timing device was used to measure the speed of bullets so the box that they had to throw into was near shoulder height. The front of the 2' x 2' box was about 60 feet from where they threw the ball. They were both in street clothes although they took their jackets off. The device measured the speed of the ball as it passed the front end of the box until it smashed into a steel plate at the end of a box which was 5 yards long. So the test measured the speed as it traveled between 60 - 75 feet from the pitcher's hands. They both threw several times before they were able to hit a wire to trip the recording. Both had three times measured and Johnson's best was 122 feet per second (83 MPH) and Ruckers was 113 (77 MPH). Considering that a modern radar gun measures the speed of a ball as it leaves the pitcher's hand, the times above would register about 9-10 MPH faster by today's method of measuring speed. A ball loses 1 MPH for every 8 feet traveled from the start of the pitch. In a Washington Post article in 1929 the writer states that Bill Tilden's serve was timed at 85 MPH by the Bureau of Standards and that Walter Johnson was timed at 113 MPH by the Bureau of Standards. The same article states that a ball was measured at 75 MPH off the bat of Babe Ruth. In an article by Shirley Povich in 1937 it claims that Walter Johnson was timed at more than 100 MPH. In the 1939 article that I mentioned in my earlier post, Walter Johnson was credited with throwing a ball 134 feet per second (91 MPH) with Joe Wood throwing 124 feet per second and Christy Mathewson 127. This story states that the test took place in 1917. So either a) Johnson's fastball was measured by another recording device subsequent to the 1912 story or else B) over the years the original story was misreported due to bad memory etc. Either way considering that he threw the ball in street clothes without a mound and without warm-ups, I have no doubt he could chuck the ball close to 100 MPH.

Here's some other pitched speed stories.

In 1930 several members of the Yankees were invited to West Point Military Academy. The point of this test was to determine whether the velocity of a "heavy" ball was greater than that of a "light" ball. We hear the same lingo today where people credit certain pitchers with throwing a heavy ball which tends to break bats. General Smith of the military academy felt that regardless of whether one pitcher threw a heavy ball and another threw a light ball, the difference was all a matter of velocity. A couple members of the Yankees threw into this "Boulenge chonograph". The idea behind this device was similar to the one from the 1912 test. Instead of a 15 foot gap between the front and back of the box there was a 6 foot gap. Pitcher Lew McEvoy threw about "4 innings of pitches" and the device failed to register a pitch. Ben Chapman stepped up and almost broke the machine on his second pitch. The military finally figured out why the machine failed to measure a pitch - a broken rubber band!! Up steps shortstop Mark Koenig who was known for having a great arm. Koenig threw the ball 150 feet per second - 102 MPH! Pitcher Lew McEvoy stepped back in and proceeded to throw a couple pitches around the same speed as Koenig before his arm gave out. In 1933 Lefty Gomez and Van Lingo Mungo were timed at West Point. Gomez threw 111 feet per second (76 MPH) while Mungo threw 113.5 FPS (77 MPH). A photo-electric speed meter was developed by the Cleveland Indians and Cleveland Plain Dealer. This machine had a 3 foot gap from front to back. There are several times that were reported from this device but the fastest was recorded by Atley Donald of the Yankees in 1939 at 139 FPS (94.7 MPH). He broke the record of 136 FPS held by outfielder Dee Miles with 136 FPS (92.7 MPH). Bob Feller also threw into this machine and only threw 119 FPS (81 MPH). Based upon a couple other articles at the time, there was skepticism about the validity of this machine since Feller's speed was lower than that of several other players on his own team. In 1946 Feller threw into "Joe Chronograph" which was developed by the Army Ordinance Department. The device was considered more efficient than the earlier testing devices. This device measured the speed of the ball as it passed into the front end which was 5 feet in front of home plate and the back end which was at home plate. The device measured the speed for this 5 foot interval. Feller threw the ball 145 feet per second which has always been reported as 98.6 MPH. Using today's "fast" guns, this would measure in the low 100 MPH range.

As I read some of these articles it struck me that writers of the time projected that the devices could be used to determine whether a prospect had the ability to throw hard enough to make the majors and also to keep track of a pitcher's speed throughout a game. That's exactly how radar guns are used nowadays.

[dumbdumb]

Anti-drug abuse act of 1986 and 1988 both include steroids and this has nothing to do with baseball.

Fay Vincent mentioned they were illegal in baseball all the way back in 1991, in a memo sent out to the teams.

Also.

Legal status




Various compounds with anabolic and androgenic effects, their relation with anabolic steroids
The legal status of anabolic steroids varies from country to country: some have stricter controls on their use or prescription than others though in many countries they are not illegal. In the U.S., anabolic steroids are currently listed as Schedule III controlled substances under the Controlled Substances Act, which makes simply possessing of such substances without a prescription, first offense, a federal crime punishable by up to one year in prison.

Nevertheless, anabolic steroids were added to Schedule III of the Controlled Substances Act in the Anabolic Steroid Control Act of 1990.^[106]

 

 

mlb memorandums history from the Mitchell report--added 1/1/13

 

In May 1985, Commissioner Ueberroth established a mandatory drug testing program covering all employees in the major and minor leagues, including umpires and minor league players. The program tested for drugs of abuse and amphetamines but did not test for steroids or other performance enhancing substances. Initial positive tests were to be met with treatment rather than discipline.¹¹⁸

 

.        1991: Fay Vincent Adds Steroids to Baseball's Drug Polic In September 1989, Francis T. ("Fay") Vincent was elected to succeed A. Bartlett Giamatti as Commissioner, after Giamatti's sudden death. Vincent was the first Commissioner to expressly include anabolic steroids among the substances prohibited under baseball's drug policy, which he did in the June 1991 version of the memorandum.¹³⁰ Steroids were added to the drug policy at that time, apparently as a result of the enactment of the Anabolic Steroids Control Act of 1990. Under that statute, anabolic steroids had been reclassified as Schedule III controlled substances, and the illegal use of them became subject to substantially increased criminal penalties.

[NFUA_44]

There wasn't anything making it illegal within the confines of the game, so how can you hold only a certain number of "known" people responsible? Those who have tested positive since the agreement was made between the MLBPA and the Owners, have had to suffer the consequences, as they should.

Let's face it, we are never going to know how many of them did it. There were pitchers who were able to perform longer, and recover quicker. Same principle applied for hitters. Shooting up a bunch of roids and getting your body all pumped up isn't going to make you suddenly more talented to the point of being able to hit a major league fastball, it means you'll be posting better numbers longer, and recovering quicker.

I can respect where Olney is coming from in this article. I still hold the player ultimately responsible, but let's be real. The drive and desire to be #1, make the huge money, and be loved and adored by the masses is all part of a system that owners, advertisers, players, media, and fans all pushed for. Most players just kept chasing that dream. That drive to be loved by the masses is a big draw. Think about the NFL, their drug program has been around for a long time, the punishments and suspensions are all well known, and yet to this day there are guys busted every year, this many years later when it was all supposed to be under control.

[Maineac]

During the time when it all came to light, it wasn't illegal to use supplements such as steroids. Now it is and there are consequences. Since drugs hit the street, there were always some players that were using them, whether it was speed, greenies, coke, caffine, steroids. Not saying it is right, just not illegal.

It certainly was illegal, by federal law if not by baseball rules/contracts/by-laws. Another post mentioned there wasn't anything making anabolic steroirds illegal "within the confines of the game." What difference does that make? Baseball rules do not trump federal law. Have players gotten in trouble for using/possessing cocaine? Do the OBR say anything about possessing/using cocaine? As dumbdumb points out anabolic steroids were added to Schedule III of the Controlled Substances Act in 1990, well ahead of the home run race, etc. A lot of people got caught up in the excitement of the big numbers without stopping to ask how that was happening. McGwire, Sosa, Bonds all looked like cartoon characters at the height of the home run excitement. Others too (Canseco, Giambi). It was pretty clear what was happening at the time, if one had ever been around people who had used steroids before. The whole thing was a house of cards waiting to come tumbling down, but a lot of money was made before MLB could deny it no longer.

As for the OP, I think Olney has a point. The "stewards of the game" allowed these travesties to happen, in fact they profited handsomely from it and brought a lot of paying customers back to the game. All they had to do was sell their souls and sell out the people who had set records that had stood for decades by people who (we suspect) were not using PED's. Personally, I'd like to see all those guys signing cards on the sidewalk next to Pete Rose. In reality, barring some definite knowledge that they cheated, how do you keep them out?

[Jocko]

By not voting them in

[Maineac]

By not voting them in

OK, then what rationale do you use for not voting them in?

[Umpire in Chief]

And what weight, if any, do you give to someone like McGuire who has come clean and told the truth about what happened, versus people who will lie about it until their dying breath?

There are so many variables.

The next few years of elections should be interesting.

[yawetag]

McGuire who has come clean and told the truth about what happened

Only after he essentially pled the fifth to the Senate committee.

The only reason he came clean was because he wanted a chance at the Hall (and he wanted a job in MLB).

[NFUA_44]

Bottom line is you can't discern who was and who wasn't because there was no authority in the sport that wanted to do anything about it. Bonds is proof that the offensive side got a boost, Clemens and Petite are proof the defense was doing the same. You can't scapegoat just those guys when it was running rampant through the sport.

Its not fair that the clean guys get lumped into the equation, but I'm sure there are players from the dead ball era that felt the same way. The article spells out some facts and what it was that allowed it to flourish, maybe the punishment will be handled by the writers, hard to say. I think that keeping them from the hall is a bit much given that most had hall of fame careers either way. Maybe making sure that their not first ballot entries should be enough, I don't know, but I do know that it was acceptable in a wink, wink, nod, nod fashion for a long time. Just like it was in the NFL and elsewhere.

Trying to roast just a handful of people that participated in a widespread problem isn't doing anything more than trying to fix a past wrong that has been finally dealt with. Maybe an asterick isn't such a bad idea after all! And as to Mr. Rose that's a whole different can of worms, petty politics. Put him in already, there is a generation of fans that need to see what a ball player was like!

[mstaylor]

If you look at Bonds pre-steroids and then post-steriods, he was much bigger and stronger. Yes, you have to have the ability to hit the ball, having the extra forty pounds of muscle mass makes you able to hit many more homeruns. McGuire was always big but prone to injury. The steroids kept him healthy, and I'm sure it didn't hurt his power either.  

[Jocko]

Pete Rose was definitely a HOF caliber player. Charlie Hustle was a man among boys when he was on the diamond. He gambled. But not so a bad performance on his part would win him the wager. He bet ON HIMSELF to rise up and his team win. BANNED FOR LIFE FROM MLB. For gambling on his team winning. Now, you tell me....... Bonds, Mcguire, Sosa, and Clemens deserve the HOF over him?

EPIC FAIL!!! No way in the pit of hades could these guys be worthy to tie Pete's cleats.

[dumbdumb]

The guy I ran into who went to the umpires school said there is a poster prominently displayed in every Minor League and Major League Park of MLB Rule 21 (a-g) in the players locker room. The way he made it sound was that it has been in locker rooms for years and years and years.

 d) BETTING ON BALL GAMES. Any player, umpire, or club official or employee, 
who shall bet any sum whatsoever upon any baseball game in connection with which
the bettor has no duty to perform shall be declared ineligible for one year. 

Any player, umpire, or club or league official or employee, 
who shall bet any sum whatsoever upon any baseball game in connection with which the bettor has a duty to perform
shall be declared permanently ineligible. 

(g) RULE TO BE KEPT POSTED. A printed copy of this Rule shall be kept posted in each clubhouse. 

The rule as posted in every clubhouse for ages:

 

http://seanlahman.com/files/rose/rule21.htmlach

 

Each player has to make a decision whether to abide by this rule or not and suffer any and all consequences, fair or unfair in their own personal minds, that may come their way for violating this rule. One only has to look in the mirror to see whom to blame for any consequences.

 

New article about the juicers

 

http://www.miaminewtimes.com/2013-01-31/news/a-rod-and-doping-a-miami-clinic-supplies-drugs-to-sports-biggest-names/full/

[Jocko]

100% agree. Same with dopers who don't make the hall. Great point.

[Maineac]

100% agree. Same with dopers who don't make the hall. Great point.

 

100% agree here also. Problem is, there was proof enough on the betting to ban him for life. Not the case for the dopers.

[dumbdumb]

Well, Pete Rose will tell you that by "accepting" (I accept the ban) the ban from Giamatti, that he was in effect telling us that he did what he said the Doud report said he did. He did not have to use the words, yes I am guilty of not only betting on baseball, I am guilty of betting on my own team (insider trading) , the Reds. Pete relied on the fact that since he would not come out and use a definitive statement, (until years later), that the people would rise up and make the commissioner take away the ban, and tell the commissioner the evidence was "circumstantial" at best, and that basically he should be exonerated by the "beyond a reasonable doubt" judgment in our society, rather than the "preponderance of the evidence" judgment, especially once Giamatti died. Many of the players think they answer to no one and are above the law since they are idolized.

 

They also know that many of these backdoor, behind closed door practices are hard to prove, unless you physically catch them in the act basically (moonshiners), and they thrive off the codes in all laws and procedures of "circumstantial evidence", just as someone breaking any law or rule trying to put one over on everybody is trying to do, and knowing, or at least hoping, that a good attorney (and the money to pay the attorney is no object)can get them off the hook.

 

Now, was Clemens guilty, but nobody could prove it? Was Braun guilty although he got off on a technicality of chain of evidence. Did all the witnesses and trainers come forth in each and every case (the above and Pete's case) or did they hide behind the person in question to not only save that person, but save themselves??? How about Armstrong in another sport.

 

Canseco said he used steroids. If he used and admitted, should he be forgiven and let into the hall, if he even had a chance? How about Pettitt for the Yankees. He admitted to it, and it sounded like he only did it one time, to help speed up "recovery" from an injury, not to build up a herculean arm to blow the fastball by the opponent.

 

Basically, it is up to the BBWA to decide on the candidates and what their fate will be. It is out of our hands, and players, from day 1, chose to do things that can affect their careers and status for consideration of all awards (if they even care), by their own actions. There are guys coming in right this season that will have to make these choices as well and accept responsibility for their actions during their whole career. Will they make the right decisions, or will they try to find some new fangled way to beat the system and hide from prosecution. Time will tell.

[yawetag]

dumbdumb, was that rule posted when Rose walked through the tunnel every night? I doubt it.