ichiro safe at plate in ny-balt game

[Mr Umpire]

Once there is no tag attempt, there is no base path.

[UmpTTS43]

Once he passed the plate he has legally attained it pending proper appeal. It now becomes a missed base in which there are specific guidelines concerning missing home plate. Once he passed the plate and returned, he reestablished his base path to the plate. At no time did he ever go outside of his established base path.

[johnnyg08]

Once he passed the plate he has legally attained it pending proper appeal. It now becomes a missed base in which there are specific guidelines concerning missing home plate. Once he passed the plate and returned, he reestablished his base path to the plate. At no time did he ever go outside of his established base path.

Once again, another great post by UmpTTS43

[Lindsay]

I never quite grasp why catchers don't just lie flat on or otherwise cover home plate on a missed base and wait for the runner to come to them, generally with two outs or when the trailing runner's position is irrelevent.

[BRUMP]

I never quite grasp why catchers don't just lie flat on or otherwise cover home plate on a missed base and wait for the runner to come to them, generally with two outs or when the trailing runner's position is irrelevent.

Instinct. That's why not. Although that idea makes sense it's a lot of thinking o do in a short period of time.

[cyclonehokiece]

I never quite grasp why catchers don't just lie flat on or otherwise cover home plate on a missed base and wait for the runner to come to them, generally with two outs or when the trailing runner's position is irrelevent.

Instinct. That's why not. Although that idea makes sense it's a lot of thinking o do in a short period of time.

Also, I would also think some form of self-preservation. While you are protected, by lying prone, you are opening yourself up for injury.

[mstaylor]

Yep, the first time that happens the runner is spiking his ribs.

[Thunderheads]

basejester:

HIS basepath ...........or baseline, ....HIS, ...not THE .....

HIS basepath....

I concur on UmpTT

[johnnyg08]

basejester:

HIS basepath ...........or baseline, ....HIS, ...not THE .....

HIS basepath....

I concur on UmpTT

Very key component to understanding the rule.

[basejester]

basejester:

HIS basepath ...........or baseline, ....HIS, ...not THE .....

HIS basepath....

It should be clear from my comments that I'm not confused on this point.

The thing that's critical to interpreting the rule the way it was in the Ichiro play is that his base path no longer exists after the runner passes the fielder, as Mr. Umpire notes.

That's not actually in the rule. If that's the way the rule is meant to work, it could be made more clear by adding that statement explicitly.

[Replacematt]

basejester:

HIS basepath ...........or baseline, ....HIS, ...not THE .....

HIS basepath....

It should be clear from my comments that I'm not confused on this point.

The thing that's critical to interpreting the rule the way it was in the Ichiro play is that his base path no longer exists after the runner passes the fielder, as Mr. Umpire notes.

That's not actually in the rule. If that's the way the rule is meant to work, it could be made more clear by adding that statement explicitly.

It took them decades to change the rule from "the" to "his." I'm not holding my breath.

[mstaylor]

I don't know, seems pretty clear the way it is written. There were two tag attempts and he didn't go more than three feet to avoid them. Ugly play but legal.

[basejester]

I don't know, seems pretty clear the way it is written. There were two tag attempts and he didn't go more than three feet to avoid them. Ugly play but legal.

I bet you a coke that if we gave the rulebook, this video, and an hour to a group of 100 smart guys (say, judges) with no umpire training; at least 1/3 of them have an out.

[UMP45]

And that 1/3 would be wrong.

[Thunderheads]

basejester:

HIS basepath ...........or baseline, ....HIS, ...not THE .....

HIS basepath....

It should be clear from my comments that I'm not confused on this point.

The thing that's critical to interpreting the rule the way it was in the Ichiro play is that his base path no longer exists after the runner passes the fielder, as Mr. Umpire notes.

That's not actually in the rule. If that's the way the rule is meant to work, it could be made more clear by adding that statement explicitly.

Nope.

As a whole, I think you tend to over analyze the rule book. I'm not saying that to be rude, but simply stating what it seems like to me. It seems as though you're always looking for a clear and concise breakdown of every possible scenario, and it's just not going to happen ;)

[mstaylor]

The rulebook can not cover every situation or it would be so big it would be ridiculous. You have to take it and apply it accordingly. Look at other systems, LL,FED, NCAA and others that change thing annually and it takes them three to five years to get a change right.

[scrounge]

I don't know, seems pretty clear the way it is written. There were two tag attempts and he didn't go more than three feet to avoid them. Ugly play but legal.

I bet you a coke that if we gave the rulebook, this video, and an hour to a group of 100 smart guys (say, judges) with no umpire training; at least 1/3 of them have an out.

Is that the standard now? 100 untrained people? I'm a smart guy, top 10 MBA, but give me an hour with a book on Civil Procedure and I'll probably screw things up so royally that a 1L would laugh at me. Because I'd have no context, no background, no expertise to read the rule book in its entirety and understand how sections related to each other. I would read passages and sections in isolation and not consider how other sections modify it, how seemingly clear phrases aren't as clear cut as an initial naive reading would seem to indicate.

I believe you've attached yourself to an initial argument and are stubbornly sticking to it in the face of overwhelming evidence. The rule on basepath/baseline can't mean anything when there's no tag being attempted PRECISELY because the entire construct of the rule is built upon the premise of that very condition. All the appeal procedures of a missed base, the special treatment of mechanics of a missed home plate, etc. ONLY make sense if the basepath/baseline rule don't apply to overrunning home. If the parallel lines of the basepath/baseline ended at the plate, all of those rules and mechanics would be nonsensical. So which is more likely, that all those items are wrong or that you're misinterpreting the application and context of the basepath/baseline rule? I know which one I'd bet a coke on.

[basejester]

The rulebook can not cover every situation or it would be so big it would be ridiculous. You have to take it and apply it accordingly. Look at other systems, LL,FED, NCAA and others that change thing annually and it takes them three to five years to get a change right.

If I have to read another document to understand the rules, staple the other document to the rules and call it all rules. What's ridiculous about that? Look at how hard MLB threw Larry Barnet under the bus by writing rules into an interpretation. All the people reading the rules lost their SH*#.

[basejester]

He's more than 3 feet from home when he passes home. The baseline goes through home.

I want to clarify again that by this I mean "At the moment he passes home, he is more than 3 feet from it," (the blue line) not "By passing home by more than 3 feet, he is out of his basepath."

The rule on basepath/baseline can't mean anything when there's no tag being attempted PRECISELY because the entire construct of the rule is built upon the premise of that very condition. All the appeal procedures of a missed base, the special treatment of mechanics of a missed home plate, etc. ONLY make sense if the basepath/baseline rule don't apply to overrunning home. If the parallel lines of the basepath/baseline ended at the plate, all of those rules and mechanics would be nonsensical. So which is more likely, that all those items are wrong or that you're misinterpreting the application and context of the basepath/baseline rule?

Are you rebutting "By passing home by more than 3 feet, he is out of his basepath."? This seems like a well thought-out argument against that.

[mstaylor]

Who gives a flip if he was more than three feet by home, there was no tag attempt so the rule doesn't apply. He started returning, Weiters attempted a tag and the runner went directly over and touched the plate. Straight up, this play is completely legal.

If I have to read another document to understand the rules, staple the other document to the rules and call it all rules.

So the lawyers can quit reading case law and writing briefs because they can just read the law and the answer will be plain. Our interps are the case law and court rulings to help us interpret each play.

[Thunderheads]

This diagram is not good......the red line that's supposed to be showing Ichiro's path isn't even close. Ichiro's path is closest to the black line, thus the reason he's not out of "his basepath"

[basejester]

This diagram is not good......the red line that's supposed to be showing Ichiro's path isn't even close. Ichiro's path is closest to the black line, thus the reason he's not out of "his basepath"

You're completely out in left field on this. His base path, as defined in 7.08 (a) (1) goes to a base.

His base path isn't a foul line. It's also not where the runner is currently going.

The point of contention (until now) hasn't been how to draw his base path, but when it stops mattering.

[Thunderheads]

This diagram is not good......the red line that's supposed to be showing Ichiro's path isn't even close. Ichiro's path is closest to the black line, thus the reason he's not out of "his basepath"

You're completely out in left field on this. His base path, as defined in 7.08 (a) (1) goes to a base.

His base path isn't a foul line. It's also not where the runner is currently going.

The point of contention (until now) hasn't been how to draw his base path, but when it stops mattering.

Excuse me sir, but I am NOT completely out in left field on this! See the bold, and apply it to Ichiro and the play we're discussing. DOES 7.08 necessarily go to a base?

I understand what HIS BASE PATH means, and that's what I'm pointing out. Simply stated, the diagram (regardless of what YOU think the point of contention is) is not drawn up properly and doesn't show Ichiro's complete path. The red line is skewed.

[basejester]

Excuse me sir, but I am NOT completely out in left field on this! See the bold, and apply it to Ichiro and the play we're discussing. DOES 7.08 necessarily go to a base?

Yes, it does.

7.08 Any runner is out when— a (1) He runs more than three feet away from his base path to avoid being tagged

unless his action is to avoid interference with a fielder fielding a batted ball. A

runner’s base path is established when the tag attempt occurs and is a straight

line from the runner to the base he is attempting to reach safely;

The black line isn't his base path.

[Thunderheads]

Excuse me sir, but I am NOT completely out in left field on this! See the bold, and apply it to Ichiro and the play we're discussing. DOES 7.08 necessarily go to a base?

Yes, it does.

7.08 Any runner is out when— a (1) He runs more than three feet away from his base path to avoid being tagged

unless his action is to avoid interference with a fielder fielding a batted ball. A

runner’s base path is established when the tag attempt occurs and is a straight

line from the runner to the base he is attempting to reach safely;

The black line isn't his base path.

It's his basepath until a tag is made ... see bold red