ichiro safe at plate in ny-balt game

[th3]

the home plate umpire did a great job of adjusting his postion throughout the whole play

[Mr Umpire]

Play at the plate and Angel Hernandez makes a heck of good call on it.

R1, 2 outs. Ball hit into RF corner. Relay to the plate and F2 gets it with 10 feet to spare. F2 falls to his knees and misses R1. R1 scrambles back to get around the 2nd attempted tag.

Great mechanics by PU to not signal anything on the first attempt and then signal safe after R1 touched the plate. Great call and way to stick with the play through its entirety. He could have easily assumed an easy out call on it.

[johnnyg08]

Duplicate threads. Let's combine them shall we? Probably in the Professional thread.

http://umpire-empire...n-ny-balt-game/

Nice work by Angel to see the entire play.

[Umpire in Chief]

Duplicate threads. Let's combine them shall we? Probably in the Professional thread.

Your thoughts?

Done

[Mr Umpire]

Duplicate threads. Let's combine them shall we? Probably in the Professional thread.

http://umpire-empire...n-ny-balt-game/

Anybody have Ichiro out of the baseline on this play? I'm not saying I do or don't, but I think it merits discussion.

Is the rule applied differently at home versus other bases (I know you'll say no and I will agree with you), but there's a lot going on there. It's important for the plate umpire to be closer to the play, but that narrows his field of vision to judge on the baseline rule.

Your thoughts?

No. At the moment the actual tag attempt occurred, I do not think he went over 3 feet. Once it was over, it doesn't matter anymore. I think he stayed within the 3 foot "lane".

[johnnyg08]

[Mr Umpire]

It doesn't matter where he ends up after the tag attempt. Only where he was at the time of the tag attempt. F2 was not chasing him with the tag. The tag attempt was less than a second long. He was within 3' IMO at the moment the tag attempt was made.

[MidAmUmp]

If you say he's out of the baseline, I don't want to work with you.

I'd like to point out Angel's movement during the play. He is essentially staying even with the catcher's back pocket during the entire play until the play gets a little screwy at the end. Very nice.

[johnnyg08]

If you say he's out of the baseline, I don't want to work with you.

I'd like to point out Angel's movement during the play. He is essentially staying even with the catcher's back pocket during the entire play until the play gets a little screwy at the end. Very nice.

I had many elements of this exact play about two months ago.

The defense argued out-of-the-baseline. I don't have my play on video, but where Ichiro avoided the tag is exactly what went down in my play and I did not call the runner out for OOB.

[Jocko]

Great baserunning, great HP vision, great job of staying in F2s back pocket, great job watching the play develop, great timing, great mechanics, great call, and great sell. Hernandez is a BEAST!

Told SWMBO he's my favorite HP. She asked why, and 10 seconds later this play happened. Game....set....match

[mstaylor]

As much it pains me as an O's fan to admit it, he was safe and not out of the baseline.

[Umpire in Chief]

Here's the full video if you haven't seen it already.

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=25365987&topic_id=&c_id=mlb&tcid=vpp_copy_25365987&v=3

Great base running, great umpiring, great play. This could go down as one of the best calls in the playoffs. I'm an O's fan and would have loved to see Wieters get the out, but I also love Ichiro and that was just heads up baseball.

I've already been asked about being out of the baseline three times and it's only 9:00.

IMO No he did not leave the basepath to avoid the tag. Here is my crude illustration of his path. Athletic, agile, smart - yes. Out of the base path, no.

[Jeff C.]

When I saw this last night I immediately thought great call. Which it was.

[Ump it UP]

And people say umpiring is easy. A complex play, that requires skill and concentration, and most of all good timing. It was said this could be the best call of the postseason, it also could have been the worst if his timing and focus were off.

I like Hernandez and never understood why he gets such a bad rap, but maybe this will up his rep.

[basejester]

I support Angel's correct application of the official interpretation.

However, I think the interpretations are goofy.

Any runner is out when—

He runs more than three feet away from his baseline to avoid being tagged

Yeah, that happened here.

The logic of the tag attempt is over, because the runner is out of reach, is tortured logic. He did run more than 3 feet away from the baseline. Why did he do that? To avoid being tagged. Saying he ran out the baseline due to momentum is tortured logic.

Again, I intend no criticism whatsoever of Angel.

[scrounge]

I support Angel's correct application of the official interpretation.

However, I think the interpretations are goofy.

Any runner is out when—

He runs more than three feet away from his baseline to avoid being tagged

Yeah, that happened here.

The logic of the tag attempt is over, because the runner is out of reach, is tortured logic. He did run more than 3 feet away from the baseline. Why did he do that? To avoid being tagged. Saying he ran out the baseline due to momentum is tortured logic.

Again, I intend no criticism whatsoever of Angel.

I don't think he ran 1 foot from his baseline, much less 3. He was running on the foul edge of the grass the entire way, so the baseline when established by the start of the tag attempt was the edge of the grass to home plate. Ichiro barely deviates at all from his baseline. I can't possibly see how you could say that interpretation is goofy.

[Mr Umpire]

I support Angel's correct application of the official interpretation.

However, I think the interpretations are goofy.

Any runner is out when—

He runs more than three feet away from his baseline to avoid being tagged

Yeah, that happened here.

The logic of the tag attempt is over, because the runner is out of reach, is tortured logic. He did run more than 3 feet away from the baseline. Why did he do that? To avoid being tagged. Saying he ran out the baseline due to momentum is tortured logic.

Again, I intend no criticism whatsoever of Angel.

There is no way he went 3' from HIS baseline (actually it says from his base path). The runner establishes his line to the next base (not the fair/foul line or the line between bases). He was already on the grass when the attempt occurred. That is where his baseline is. The runner was out of reach b/c the catcher was on his knees and couldn't reach any farther. At the time of the attempt (NOT where he landed), he is well within the 3' "lane".

Nothing "tortured" about it. That is why the word "his" is in there and not "3 foot from the line between bases" and it does not say "the baseline". And, it is at the time of the tag attempt. Not, the entire time he is running to the next base.

Here is the correct wording of the rule

He runs more than three feet away from his base path to avoid being tagged

unless his action is to avoid interference with a fielder fielding a batted ball. A

runner’s base path is established when the tag attempt occurs and is a straight

line from the runner to the base he is attempting to reach safely;

[basejester]

I don't think he ran 1 foot from his baseline, much less 3. He was running on the foul edge of the grass the entire way, so the baseline when established by the start of the tag attempt was the edge of the grass to home plate.

Agreed to here. He's more than 3 feet from home when he passes home. The baseline goes through home. It's only by judging the tag attempt over and by judging his momentum carrying him is not part of his attempt to avoid that we don't have an out.

[Mr Umpire]

I don't think he ran 1 foot from his baseline, much less 3. He was running on the foul edge of the grass the entire way, so the baseline when established by the start of the tag attempt was the edge of the grass to home plate.

Agreed to here. He's more than 3 feet from home when he passes home. The baseline goes through home. It's only by judging the tag attempt over and by judging his momentum carrying him is not part of his attempt to avoid that we don't have an out.

Being more than 3 feet from home has nothing to do with it and there was no tag attempt when he landed.

[basejester]

There is no way he went 3' from HIS baseline (actually it says from his base path).

I think you might have said this in the previous thread, too. The word in the OBR is baseline.

Neverthess, I understand and appreciate the distinction you are making. The baseline is not the foul line.

[Mr Umpire]

There is no way he went 3' from HIS baseline (actually it says from his base path).

I think you might have said this in the previous thread, too. The word in the OBR is baseline.

Neverthess, I understand and appreciate the distinction you are making. The baseline is not the foul line.

The words are "base path".

7.08 Any runner is out when— a (1) He runs more than three feet away from his base path to avoid being tagged

unless his action is to avoid interference with a fielder fielding a batted ball. A

runner’s base path is established when the tag attempt occurs and is a straight

line from the runner to the base he is attempting to reach safely;

[scrounge]

Regardless of the actual words, Ichiro wasn't outside it - unless you're talking about him overrunning home plate and retreating. I've never heard of ANY interpretation that OOB applies to the overrunning of HP, only to the lateral displacement of 3 ft from the baseline/basepath, pick your term.

And if this could possibly be part of OOB, then why would all the schools and every manual teach that that the PU should refrain from making a call if there is no tag and no touch? Why would abandonment not be defined as it is if merely leaving or overrunning a base is an out if more than 3 feet away. It makes no sense to interpret OOB in isolation like that. One could even say, goofy :)

[basejester]

The words are "base path".

I stand corrected. It was baseline in 2011.

[mstaylor]

He was already going wide to avoid the catcher, no tag attempt when that decision was made. He had to gear down to attempt and return to touch. Weiters made a second tag attempt that he went directly over and touched the base. I hated the fact he scored, as an O's fan, but looking at it from an umpire's viewpoint he was safe. I did not see it live, I saw it in replay an inning or so later. My thought was it was ugly but legal.

[basejester]

Regardless of the actual words, Ichiro wasn't outside it - unless you're talking about him overrunning home plate and retreating. I've never heard of ANY interpretation that OOB applies to the overrunning of HP, only to the lateral displacement of 3 ft from the baseline/basepath, pick your term.

I'm speaking about the lateral distance.

The basepath is established when the tag attempt occurs. Even if you say the tag attempt is over as soons as he passes the catcher, does this mean the basepath no longer exists?

So, I see the runner more than 3 feet behind home plate. Why is he here? Did he choose this path because it was fastest? Is he stepping around dog crap? And I'd argue he's obviously there because he attempted to avoid a tag.

I understand that the prevailing opinion is that the whole of 7.08 (a) (1) stops applying as soon as the runner passes the fielder.