Obstruction / Fake Tag debate

Umpire in Chief · February 15, 2011

In my associations meeting on Sunday one of the topics was Obstruction & Fake Tags.

One guy asked something to the effect of "What about a fielder who is standing near the bag holding out his glove like he is about to field a throw when there is no throw coming?"

One of our senior guys and a very knowledgable guy answered, "Thats nothing, that's just good baseball."

I rebutted, "If I feel that the fielders actions impeded the runner in any way, I'm getting the obstruction." Knowing with this veteran no matter how right or wrong I may be He wouldn't budge from his position so I knew I wasn't going to push it any further.

He replied, there's no rule for that and the runner needs to be aware of whats going on around him.

Lets give this a specific scenario;

No one on, a screamer down the RF line, easy stand up double possible triple.

F6 standing on the outside of 2nd (not blocking or obstructing in a typical sense) is standing there like he is about to receive the ball and be ready to apply a tag. -- Does not fake tag.

BR sees this and holds up at 2nd only to find out the ball is not coming in.

Would you call this obstruction?

Nazrat · February 15, 2011

I have nothing.

Rich Ives · February 15, 2011

In my associations meeting on Sunday one of the topics was Obstruction & Fake Tags.

One guy asked something to the effect of "What about a fielder who is standing near the bag holding out his glove like he is about to field a throw when there is no throw coming?"

One of our senior guys and a very knowledgable guy answered, "Thats nothing, that's just good baseball."

I rebutted, "If I feel that the fielders actions impeded the runner in any way, I'm getting the obstruction." Knowing with this veteran no matter how right or wrong I may be He wouldn't budge from his position so I knew I wasn't going to push it any further.

He replied, there's no rule for that and the runner needs to be aware of whats going on around him.

Lets give this a specific scenario;

No one on, a screamer down the RF line, easy stand up double possible triple.
F6 standing on the outside of 2nd (not blocking or obstructing in a typical sense) is standing there like he is about to receive the ball and be ready to apply a tag. -- Does not fake tag.
BR sees this and holds up at 2nd only to find out the ball is not coming in.

Would you call this obstruction?

No. Dekes are legal.

A fake tag is actually attempting a tag, sans ball.

Fake tags are legal in OBR, but obstruction in FED and LL.

semper_fi_72 · February 15, 2011

I have nothing also.

If it is a fake tag, he gets 3B and a Bench Warning is issued.

February 15, 2011

OBR:

Nothing.

Do nothing when F1 plunks the fake tagger during his next at bat.

His next trip to the plate, ask "did you learn your lesson?"

Semper, how badly can you contradict yourself? You say "nothing" then in the next line you're awarding him third base.

Rich Ives · February 15, 2011

Semper, how badly can you contradict yourself? You say "nothing" then in the next line you're awarding him third base.

No contradiction

1) It's not a fake tag.

2) If there was a fake tag he'd award 3B. (OK in FED and LL where fake tags are obstruction).

Rich Ives · February 15, 2011

I have nothing also.
If it is a fake tag, he gets 3B and a Bench Warning is issued.

Know where you are. Fake tags are legal in OBR.

semper_fi_72 · February 15, 2011

I have nothing also.
If it is a fake tag, he gets 3B and a Bench Warning is issued.

Know where you are. Fake tags are legal in OBR.

Rich your correct as always.

But I was answering under Fed.

JaxRolo · February 15, 2011

I have nothing if he is holding out his glove but

if he does a fake tag then Obstruction under FED

tjthresh · February 15, 2011

What everybody else said.

Rich Ives · February 15, 2011

I have nothing also.
If it is a fake tag, he gets 3B and a Bench Warning is issued.

Know where you are. Fake tags are legal in OBR.

Rich your correct as always.
But I was answering under Fed.

I knew that but we need to consider the lurkers when eesponding.

Jeff C. · February 15, 2011

I've got nothing. Play on. I did grab a fake tag last year. F6 acted like he caught a throw and applied a tag to the runner. I awarded the runner third base.

cookie · February 18, 2011

"...No one on, a screamer down the RF line, easy stand up double possible triple.

F6 standing on the outside of 2nd (not blocking or obstructing in a typical sense) is standing there like he is about to receive the ball and be ready to apply a tag. -- Does not fake tag.

BR sees this and holds up at 2nd only to find out the ball is not coming in.

Would you call this obstruction?"

OK, it's pretty much understood that this is not OBS (in FED) as there is no actual fake tag going on; however, I want to change the original situation slightly.

What if F6 were vocalizing loudly near 2nd - "We got him! We got him! Hurry up, we got him!" - as he was jumping up pretending to catch a throw to him from RF (and not faking a tag) causing the BR to slide into 2nd whereas if BR had kept running, BR might have made it to 3rd for a triple.

Would there be OBS here (FED)? Possible verbal OBS?

yawetag · February 18, 2011

What if F6 were vocalizing loudly near 2nd - "We got him! We got him! Hurry up, we got him!" - as he was jumping up pretending to catch a throw to him from RF (and not faking a tag) causing the BR to slide into 2nd whereas if BR had kept running, BR might have made it to 3rd for a triple.

Would there be OBS here (FED)? Possible verbal OBS?

Personally, I've still got nothing.

tjthresh · February 18, 2011

What if F6 were vocalizing loudly near 2nd - "We got him! We got him! Hurry up, we got him!" - as he was jumping up pretending to catch a throw to him from RF (and not faking a tag) causing the BR to slide into 2nd whereas if BR had kept running, BR might have made it to 3rd for a triple.

Would there be OBS here (FED)? Possible verbal OBS?

Personally, I've still got nothing.

Depending on how the runner reacts, I have OBS.

cookie · February 19, 2011

With regard to the Umpire in Chief OP, I had raised the same question a couple of seasons ago (on some other board) and had gotten the same response about the fake tag (in FED). No actual fake tag - no OBS for fake tag - and I have since kept that frame of reference in mind should I ever have an occasion to observe it.

However, a question bothered me about "verbalizing" a possible fake tag (though no fake tag takes place): F4 just off the bag leaping up pretending to take a throw from RF, vocalizing loudly "We got him!" while pounding his glove, giving the impression that the ball is imminent, causing the BR to slide into 2nd; whereas if BR had run thru second, he might have easily made 3rd. I go along with tjthresh's "...depending on how the runner reacts..." interpretation. If I perceived that F4's "verbalizing" actions had hindered the advance of the runner, I would signal OBS and enforce it.

From the 2011 BRD (making use of it already!):

350 OBSTRUCTION: FAKE TAG CREATES (P. 245): *PLAY 189-350 FED ONLY. As B1 is streaking between first and second following a hit to the outfield, F4 pounds his glove as if about to receive a throw. B1 slows down and stops on second. Ruling: F4's action is not fake tag but a legal decoy.

352 OBSTRUCTION: VERBAL: DEFENSIVE (P. 247): 367 ALSO: OFF INTERP 255-352: HOPKINS: Any verbal decoy, such as "I've got it," is obstruction. (Website 2001, #14)

On another note, perhaps I should have started a new thread, rather than "hijack" this one (though I did perceive that the OP had been answered). If I should have, I apologize to the readers for not doing so...

Stretch · February 19, 2011

If B1 is streaking, do I eject him or is he and the head coach now restricted to the bench? :question1:

Sorry, but "streaking" was not the best choice of words.

mstaylor · February 19, 2011

Did he have his helmet on and had there been a warning? :)

Rich Ives · February 19, 2011

Depending on how the runner reacts, I have OBS.

Call it anyway - let the fielder know what's OK and what isn't now. Eliminate the "nobody ever called it before" excuse.

JaxRolo · February 19, 2011

Pounding the glove is one thing (legal) but jumping up to pretend the ball is coming i got OBS.

Rich Ives · February 19, 2011

Pounding the glove is one thing (legal) but jumping up to pretend the ball is coming i got OBS.

I have a legal deke.

Umpire in Chief · February 20, 2011

I've learned a lot from this thread great comments all around.

jkumpire · February 22, 2011

In FED, in my opinion, this is a situation where you need to understand why the rule was put in place to help determine if it's OBS.

According to the chair of the FED Rules Committee, the most injuries happen in HS Baseball around the bases with players sliding. Therefore it seems clear the Rules Committee is trying to limit the reasons and situations for players to slide. Could this be a reason why the FPSR is written as it is?

So, if in your opinion the actions of F6, F4, or F5 are such that you think a player is being deked into sliding, even if it is innocent or small, then FED wants OBS to be called. That is a pretty clear guideline if you think about it.

mstaylor · February 22, 2011

In FED, in my opinion, this is a situation where you need to understand why the rule was put in place to help determine if it's OBS.

According to the chair of the FED Rules Committee, the most injuries happen in HS Baseball around the bases with players sliding. Therefore it seems clear the Rules Committee is trying to limit the reasons and situations for players to slide. Could this be a reason why the FPSR is written as it is?

So, if in your opinion the actions of F6, F4, or F5 are such that you think a player is being deked into sliding, even if it is innocent or small, then FED wants OBS to be called. That is a pretty clear guideline if you think about it.

You are partially correct. Fed doesn't want anything unsporting and making him slide is dangerous, keeping from advancing by sliding is unsporting. FPSR is to protect fielders. Many umpires would not call illegal take out slides at second so Fed added the FPSR to protect players.

sdix00 · February 22, 2011

"What about a fielder who is standing near the bag holding out his glove like he is about to field a throw when there is no throw coming?"

This happened this weekend during the Florida International University vs Southeastern Louisiana series on Saturday. Garrett Wittels is F6 and attempts to hold up BR by "preparing" to receive a throw from the outfield. NCAA umpires did not call it and the announcer who is pretty sharp commented on what Wittels was doing and also had no problem with it (I know, don't listen to the announcers).

The three game series is available on ESPN 3 on demand (via XBOX Live or any other authorized device).

Side note: On the previous night, Wittels was defending a 56 game hit streak in his third at bat toward the end of the game (0 for 2) when F1 threw near his hands and clearly hit Wittels on the hand. Wittels convinced UIC that the ball hit the knob. UIC grinned and reversed his ruling and allowed Wittels to take another shot at it. No questions asked from Southeastern. Wittels grounded out on a FC and did not break the 58 game record.

It occurred to me that this NCAA umpire did what he thought was best in this sitch. If I am on TV, not sure I take that chance.

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