Congratz to Mazzamouth

[mazzamouth]

I believe it was 120 + or -, How many at Harry's?

163 to start, i believe 145 at graduation...

[kcfan102]

We had a little over 120 to start and we had 111 at the graduation. That's what I heard from somebody.

[mstaylor]

I believe it was 120 + or -, How many at Harry's?

163 to start, i believe 145 at graduation...

Do guys just leave or do they get asked to leave? I can't imagine paying that kind of money and folding my tent early.

[yawetag]

Do guys just leave or do they get asked to leave? I can't imagine paying that kind of money and folding my tent early.

I can think of three reasons to leave early: Injuries, personal issues at home (death, hospital, etc), and simply not having enough time off work to go the whole time.

[kcfan102]

We had three or four guys leave because it wasn't for them. One guy had a death in the family and some other got injured and wanted to leave. Jimmy is usually good about giving refunds if you have to leave for a personal reason or if you have been "mislead". I don't know about Harry's school, I would assume he does the same thing?

[kcfan102]

For Mazz and anyone else have gone in the past,

Any chance you guys can provide a what you liked and what you think could be better about Wendeltstedt's or just talk about your experience there in general? I'm looking to go in 2012 and am trying to figure out which of the schools would be a better fit for me. Not looking for a argument or anything about which school is better since I know going to any of them would make me a better umpire. Just trying to get a sense of what it's like and how each school is different.

Thanks.

Note, I'm NOT looking for a pro job.

I can't speak for Harry's school, I was at Jimmy's this past January/February and I can only tell you his philosophy. Jim only uses minor league umpires. He doesn't want any major league umpires at his camp. These camps are designed to get you to PBUC, not the majors. We had some AAA guys, some AA guys, and a lot of A umpires. His reasoning is that the A umpires are the ones who have been to PBUC the past year (they are all last years graduates) and they have a better idea than anybody what PBUC wants for it's umpires. However, they aren't as experianced in handling situations, so thats where the experience of the AA and AAA guys come in. And a lot of MLB guys have a lot of habits that will get you fired at PBUC or in minor league ball All together, it's a really nice balance. The first half of the camp is spent drilling in the afternoon with class in the mornings. The second half has class in the morning and camp games in the afternoon. There might have been two, maybe three days where we got out of there before 5:30.

You get taught by Jim Evans, everyday. On the night before a test, if you have the curtains open, Jim will come by your room and answer any question you might have. With a question, always comes a story be prepared.

Dick Nelson ("Sarge") is also on staff there. He was an supervisor for the Umpire Development Program back when that was still around. He is a great mentor and all around ass kicker when you are being lazy. There is no sweeter man alive than Mr. Nelson.

As far as the evaluation course goes, at Jimmy's school, it's all simulated. The students and instructors run the bases and play defense with the field leader hitting fungo while other instructors are evaluating. You usually get three or four reps with nobody on and nobody out, and then six or seven reps with a slew of different runner and out combination. You work both plate and base in each game. The first few games, they kind of go easy on you and just let you go through the motions, but after that, anything goes and you better be ready for it. After your inning, an instructor talks to each student one-on-one to tell them what they need to work on, and occasionally, what they did right. You WILL get catchers/batters/runners interference, you will get runners on the same base, missed bases, obstructions, balks, balls out of play (a lot), and ejections (a lot of those too [and you have write reports if you toss an instructor]) And you never work with the same partner twice.

Another thing they really work on is plate work. They have cages set up and you and your cage group go there during the afternoon drills/games. There were a few times we got into the cages three times that day. You go in with you cage group and you get seven pitches for a right handed batter and seven pitches to a left handed batter. The other members of your cage group are the batter, catcher, and the one feeding the machine with one guy on deck. The sessions are video taped and an instructor goes one on one with each umpire. As the camp moves along, they throw in the batter "pinching off" the slot, check swings, and judgment. When you go back to your hotel, you can see what you did right and what you did wrong, as opposed to just remembering what the instructors told you. We got in the cages 33 times.

I'm sure Harry does something similar, but once again, can only tell you what happened at Jimmy's camp. All the instructors are class acts. They never turn down a question and are always willing to explain something in more detail if you don't understand. Nobody is treated differently just because of pro ambitions. I didn't have pro ambitions and i still got the same evaluation that other guys got. I can't stress this enough, the entire system is a well oiled machine, I'm sure the other school is as well. If I had pro ambitions, I would have went to PBUC. I was asked many times why I didn't want a pro job and if I would reconsider.

GO TO A SCHOOL. The best part about these schools, and it doesn't matter which one you go to, is the friends you make. They are friends for life. You drill, train, study, and eat with the same people each and every day, the friendships alone are worth the time and money.

The biggest difference I've heard between the two, is that Harry's is more of a working vacation, and Jimmy's is more of a boot camp type atmosphere. A guy I rode to class went to Harry's the past two years and thats what he said. There are MLB umpires as instructors at Harry's, which would be cool to meet a few of them, but at Jimmy's school, it was all business most of the time.

But like I said that's what I hear. Mr. Mazza, I'm sure would love to fill you in and recruit you to go to Daytona. Really, you can't go wrong with either school. Harry/Hunter Wedelstedt is a good name in the world of umpiring, as is Jim Evans. With either school on your resume, getting jobs back home should be easier.

Any questions, feel free to ask! MoBlue also went to JEAPU (we was my roommate) and he could answer questions too.

[mazzamouth]

Well, I would only like to email my thoughts.. I really can't complain about anything at Harry's.... But a working Vacation.. Hell no.. we worked are butt of too.. I know one day we were out there playing ( at Harry's the students play defense as well as umpire) 35 innings..LOL

On eof my good buddies from Harry's went to Jim's last year, he told me which one was better ( or the differences ) ..LOL

[PLA]

Well, I would only like to email my thoughts.. I really can't complain about anything at Harry's.... But a working Vacation.. Hell no.. we worked are butt of too.. I know one day we were out there playing ( at Harry's the students play defense as well as umpire) 35 innings..LOL

On eof my good buddies from Harry's went to Jim's last year, he told me which one was better ( or the differences ) ..LOL

Mazz,

I'd love to hear what you have to say. I pm'ed you my email but I definitely don't you to do anything that would jeopardize your chance at a job. Thanks!

*Scratch that, your pm inbox is apparently full :(

[sgvump]

A late congrats to you Mazz! Well done!

[dumbdumb]

For Mazz and anyone else have gone in the past,

Any chance you guys can provide a what you liked and what you think could be better about Wendeltstedt's or just talk about your experience there in general? I'm looking to go in 2012 and am trying to figure out which of the schools would be a better fit for me. Not looking for a argument or anything about which school is better since I know going to any of them would make me a better umpire. Just trying to get a sense of what it's like and how each school is different.

Thanks.

Note, I'm NOT looking for a pro job.

I can't speak for Harry's school, I was at Jimmy's this past January/February and I can only tell you his philosophy. Jim only uses minor league umpires. He doesn't want any major league umpires at his camp. These camps are designed to get you to PBUC, not the majors. We had some AAA guys, some AA guys, and a lot of A umpires. His reasoning is that the A umpires are the ones who have been to PBUC the past year (they are all last years graduates) and they have a better idea than anybody what PBUC wants for it's umpires. However, they aren't as experianced in handling situations, so thats where the experience of the AA and AAA guys come in. And a lot of MLB guys have a lot of habits that will get you fired at PBUC or in minor league ball All together, it's a really nice balance. The first half of the camp is spent drilling in the afternoon with class in the mornings. The second half has class in the morning and camp games in the afternoon. There might have been two, maybe three days where we got out of there before 5:30.

You get taught by Jim Evans, everyday. On the night before a test, if you have the curtains open, Jim will come by your room and answer any question you might have. With a question, always comes a story be prepared.

Dick Nelson ("Sarge") is also on staff there. He was an supervisor for the Umpire Development Program back when that was still around. He is a great mentor and all around ass kicker when you are being lazy. There is no sweeter man alive than Mr. Nelson.

As far as the evaluation course goes, at Jimmy's school, it's all simulated. The students and instructors run the bases and play defense with the field leader hitting fungo while other instructors are evaluating. You usually get three or four reps with nobody on and nobody out, and then six or seven reps with a slew of different runner and out combination. You work both plate and base in each game. The first few games, they kind of go easy on you and just let you go through the motions, but after that, anything goes and you better be ready for it. After your inning, an instructor talks to each student one-on-one to tell them what they need to work on, and occasionally, what they did right. You WILL get catchers/batters/runners interference, you will get runners on the same base, missed bases, obstructions, balks, balls out of play (a lot), and ejections (a lot of those too [and you have write reports if you toss an instructor]) And you never work with the same partner twice.

Another thing they really work on is plate work. They have cages set up and you and your cage group go there during the afternoon drills/games. There were a few times we got into the cages three times that day. You go in with you cage group and you get seven pitches for a right handed batter and seven pitches to a left handed batter. The other members of your cage group are the batter, catcher, and the one feeding the machine with one guy on deck. The sessions are video taped and an instructor goes one on one with each umpire. As the camp moves along, they throw in the batter "pinching off" the slot, check swings, and judgment. When you go back to your hotel, you can see what you did right and what you did wrong, as opposed to just remembering what the instructors told you. We got in the cages 33 times.

I'm sure Harry does something similar, but once again, can only tell you what happened at Jimmy's camp. All the instructors are class acts. They never turn down a question and are always willing to explain something in more detail if you don't understand. Nobody is treated differently just because of pro ambitions. I didn't have pro ambitions and i still got the same evaluation that other guys got. I can't stress this enough, the entire system is a well oiled machine, I'm sure the other school is as well. If I had pro ambitions, I would have went to PBUC. I was asked many times why I didn't want a pro job and if I would reconsider.

GO TO A SCHOOL. The best part about these schools, and it doesn't matter which one you go to, is the friends you make. They are friends for life. You drill, train, study, and eat with the same people each and every day, the friendships alone are worth the time and money.

The biggest difference I've heard between the two, is that Harry's is more of a working vacation, and Jimmy's is more of a boot camp type atmosphere. A guy I rode to class went to Harry's the past two years and thats what he said. There are MLB umpires as instructors at Harry's, which would be cool to meet a few of them, but at Jimmy's school, it was all business most of the time.

But like I said that's what I hear. Mr. Mazza, I'm sure would love to fill you in and recruit you to go to Daytona. Really, you can't go wrong with either school. Harry/Hunter Wedelstedt is a good name in the world of umpiring, as is Jim Evans. With either school on your resume, getting jobs back home should be easier.

Any questions, feel free to ask! MoBlue also went to JEAPU (we was my roommate) and he could answer questions too.

KC

If you or Mazz made it, it would be best to lock it down on all boards, period, IMHO. If you want some PM's that might?????? be OK as long as someone who PM's you does not get on the boards and give away that they heard it from you, or if some of us visit you in whatever league you are assigned, you can talk all you want. However not on the boards where it is in print, IMHO.

Now, some of you who did not make it, or turned down an offer, or just went to improve, here is my question.

Could you elaborate on what you learned that us amateur umpires back home do incorrectly in their opinion (no I'm not saying they are right either) or maybe now in your opinion after all you have learned, all the way from handling situations, to our mechanics and positioning. I will not get into rules knowledge. Also, how do they and you think we do with handling coaches that are ragging on us (are we too tough or are we to lenient, and why). How do they and you, now that you've been to the school, think we handle our coaching encounters. What are things we should do with our interactions with the coaches (and assistants) and various situations like bean-balls, players dissing players, showing umpires up (and list some of the ways they show us up or play us and we are totally unaware that we are being played or shown up), etc. and coaches that refuse to leave but you don't want to forfeit or suspend although maybe you have to. Come on, help us out and let us know some of what you learned, if we had anyone who went this year or last year and was not chosen and is not going back for another try. Thanks.

Oh yeh, congrats to all you guys who made it, and to all those who went to the school. It sounds like a unique experience that every umpire should be able to experience. Unfortunately, life does not always provide even the chance sometimes.

[yawetag]

If you or Mazz made it, it would be best to lock it down on all boards, period, IMHO. If you want some PM's that might?????? be OK as long as someone who PM's you does not get on the boards and give away that they heard it from you, or if some of us visit you in whatever league you are assigned, you can talk all you want. However not on the boards where it is in print, IMHO.

I wonder if Warren gets questions from PBUC on whether certain users are on the board. He wouldn't have to respond to them.

My thinking is that someone could use a different email address (umpire4life@gmail.com, for example), come up with a username here (umpire4life, for example), and never give personal information (or fake info). PBUC would never know which candidate it was.

I'm not saying mazza's followed this route, but it wouldn't be hard to do.

[sdix00]

For Mazz and anyone else have gone in the past,

Any chance you guys can provide a what you liked and what you think could be better about Wendeltstedt's or just talk about your experience there in general? I'm looking to go in 2012 and am trying to figure out which of the schools would be a better fit for me. Not looking for a argument or anything about which school is better since I know going to any of them would make me a better umpire. Just trying to get a sense of what it's like and how each school is different.

Thanks.

Note, I'm NOT looking for a pro job.

I can't speak for Harry's school, I was at Jimmy's this past January/February and I can only tell you his philosophy. Jim only uses minor league umpires. He doesn't want any major league umpires at his camp. These camps are designed to get you to PBUC, not the majors. We had some AAA guys, some AA guys, and a lot of A umpires. His reasoning is that the A umpires are the ones who have been to PBUC the past year (they are all last years graduates) and they have a better idea than anybody what PBUC wants for it's umpires. However, they aren't as experianced in handling situations, so thats where the experience of the AA and AAA guys come in. And a lot of MLB guys have a lot of habits that will get you fired at PBUC or in minor league ball All together, it's a really nice balance. The first half of the camp is spent drilling in the afternoon with class in the mornings. The second half has class in the morning and camp games in the afternoon. There might have been two, maybe three days where we got out of there before 5:30.

You get taught by Jim Evans, everyday. On the night before a test, if you have the curtains open, Jim will come by your room and answer any question you might have. With a question, always comes a story be prepared.

Dick Nelson ("Sarge") is also on staff there. He was an supervisor for the Umpire Development Program back when that was still around. He is a great mentor and all around ass kicker when you are being lazy. There is no sweeter man alive than Mr. Nelson.

As far as the evaluation course goes, at Jimmy's school, it's all simulated. The students and instructors run the bases and play defense with the field leader hitting fungo while other instructors are evaluating. You usually get three or four reps with nobody on and nobody out, and then six or seven reps with a slew of different runner and out combination. You work both plate and base in each game. The first few games, they kind of go easy on you and just let you go through the motions, but after that, anything goes and you better be ready for it. After your inning, an instructor talks to each student one-on-one to tell them what they need to work on, and occasionally, what they did right. You WILL get catchers/batters/runners interference, you will get runners on the same base, missed bases, obstructions, balks, balls out of play (a lot), and ejections (a lot of those too [and you have write reports if you toss an instructor]) And you never work with the same partner twice.

Another thing they really work on is plate work. They have cages set up and you and your cage group go there during the afternoon drills/games. There were a few times we got into the cages three times that day. You go in with you cage group and you get seven pitches for a right handed batter and seven pitches to a left handed batter. The other members of your cage group are the batter, catcher, and the one feeding the machine with one guy on deck. The sessions are video taped and an instructor goes one on one with each umpire. As the camp moves along, they throw in the batter "pinching off" the slot, check swings, and judgment. When you go back to your hotel, you can see what you did right and what you did wrong, as opposed to just remembering what the instructors told you. We got in the cages 33 times.

I'm sure Harry does something similar, but once again, can only tell you what happened at Jimmy's camp. All the instructors are class acts. They never turn down a question and are always willing to explain something in more detail if you don't understand. Nobody is treated differently just because of pro ambitions. I didn't have pro ambitions and i still got the same evaluation that other guys got. I can't stress this enough, the entire system is a well oiled machine, I'm sure the other school is as well. If I had pro ambitions, I would have went to PBUC. I was asked many times why I didn't want a pro job and if I would reconsider.

GO TO A SCHOOL. The best part about these schools, and it doesn't matter which one you go to, is the friends you make. They are friends for life. You drill, train, study, and eat with the same people each and every day, the friendships alone are worth the time and money.

The biggest difference I've heard between the two, is that Harry's is more of a working vacation, and Jimmy's is more of a boot camp type atmosphere. A guy I rode to class went to Harry's the past two years and thats what he said. There are MLB umpires as instructors at Harry's, which would be cool to meet a few of them, but at Jimmy's school, it was all business most of the time.

But like I said that's what I hear. Mr. Mazza, I'm sure would love to fill you in and recruit you to go to Daytona. Really, you can't go wrong with either school. Harry/Hunter Wedelstedt is a good name in the world of umpiring, as is Jim Evans. With either school on your resume, getting jobs back home should be easier.

Any questions, feel free to ask! MoBlue also went to JEAPU (we was my roommate) and he could answer questions too.

KC -

Just want to thank you for this. I have two boys who umpire, 15,14. I know they would be great for school and school would be great for them. I would love to see them do this after high school so they have a way to earn some decent money calling games when they are in college.

They are both going to Jr School in June.

I gave them your notes above and I know they enjoyed reading it. I can yap about school to them all I want, but the time you took to jot it all down is much appreciated.

[mstaylor]

For Mazz and anyone else have gone in the past,

Any chance you guys can provide a what you liked and what you think could be better about Wendeltstedt's or just talk about your experience there in general? I'm looking to go in 2012 and am trying to figure out which of the schools would be a better fit for me. Not looking for a argument or anything about which school is better since I know going to any of them would make me a better umpire. Just trying to get a sense of what it's like and how each school is different.

Thanks.

Note, I'm NOT looking for a pro job.

I can't speak for Harry's school, I was at Jimmy's this past January/February and I can only tell you his philosophy. Jim only uses minor league umpires. He doesn't want any major league umpires at his camp. These camps are designed to get you to PBUC, not the majors. We had some AAA guys, some AA guys, and a lot of A umpires. His reasoning is that the A umpires are the ones who have been to PBUC the past year (they are all last years graduates) and they have a better idea than anybody what PBUC wants for it's umpires. However, they aren't as experianced in handling situations, so thats where the experience of the AA and AAA guys come in. And a lot of MLB guys have a lot of habits that will get you fired at PBUC or in minor league ball All together, it's a really nice balance. The first half of the camp is spent drilling in the afternoon with class in the mornings. The second half has class in the morning and camp games in the afternoon. There might have been two, maybe three days where we got out of there before 5:30.

You get taught by Jim Evans, everyday. On the night before a test, if you have the curtains open, Jim will come by your room and answer any question you might have. With a question, always comes a story be prepared.

Dick Nelson ("Sarge") is also on staff there. He was an supervisor for the Umpire Development Program back when that was still around. He is a great mentor and all around ass kicker when you are being lazy. There is no sweeter man alive than Mr. Nelson.

As far as the evaluation course goes, at Jimmy's school, it's all simulated. The students and instructors run the bases and play defense with the field leader hitting fungo while other instructors are evaluating. You usually get three or four reps with nobody on and nobody out, and then six or seven reps with a slew of different runner and out combination. You work both plate and base in each game. The first few games, they kind of go easy on you and just let you go through the motions, but after that, anything goes and you better be ready for it. After your inning, an instructor talks to each student one-on-one to tell them what they need to work on, and occasionally, what they did right. You WILL get catchers/batters/runners interference, you will get runners on the same base, missed bases, obstructions, balks, balls out of play (a lot), and ejections (a lot of those too [and you have write reports if you toss an instructor]) And you never work with the same partner twice.

Another thing they really work on is plate work. They have cages set up and you and your cage group go there during the afternoon drills/games. There were a few times we got into the cages three times that day. You go in with you cage group and you get seven pitches for a right handed batter and seven pitches to a left handed batter. The other members of your cage group are the batter, catcher, and the one feeding the machine with one guy on deck. The sessions are video taped and an instructor goes one on one with each umpire. As the camp moves along, they throw in the batter "pinching off" the slot, check swings, and judgment. When you go back to your hotel, you can see what you did right and what you did wrong, as opposed to just remembering what the instructors told you. We got in the cages 33 times.

I'm sure Harry does something similar, but once again, can only tell you what happened at Jimmy's camp. All the instructors are class acts. They never turn down a question and are always willing to explain something in more detail if you don't understand. Nobody is treated differently just because of pro ambitions. I didn't have pro ambitions and i still got the same evaluation that other guys got. I can't stress this enough, the entire system is a well oiled machine, I'm sure the other school is as well. If I had pro ambitions, I would have went to PBUC. I was asked many times why I didn't want a pro job and if I would reconsider.

GO TO A SCHOOL. The best part about these schools, and it doesn't matter which one you go to, is the friends you make. They are friends for life. You drill, train, study, and eat with the same people each and every day, the friendships alone are worth the time and money.

The biggest difference I've heard between the two, is that Harry's is more of a working vacation, and Jimmy's is more of a boot camp type atmosphere. A guy I rode to class went to Harry's the past two years and thats what he said. There are MLB umpires as instructors at Harry's, which would be cool to meet a few of them, but at Jimmy's school, it was all business most of the time.

But like I said that's what I hear. Mr. Mazza, I'm sure would love to fill you in and recruit you to go to Daytona. Really, you can't go wrong with either school. Harry/Hunter Wedelstedt is a good name in the world of umpiring, as is Jim Evans. With either school on your resume, getting jobs back home should be easier.

Any questions, feel free to ask! MoBlue also went to JEAPU (we was my roommate) and he could answer questions too.

KC

If you or Mazz made it, it would be best to lock it down on all boards, period, IMHO. If you want some PM's that might?????? be OK as long as someone who PM's you does not get on the boards and give away that they heard it from you, or if some of us visit you in whatever league you are assigned, you can talk all you want. However not on the boards where it is in print, IMHO.

Now, some of you who did not make it, or turned down an offer, or just went to improve, here is my question.

Could you elaborate on what you learned that us amateur umpires back home do incorrectly in their opinion (no I'm not saying they are right either) or maybe now in your opinion after all you have learned, all the way from handling situations, to our mechanics and positioning. I will not get into rules knowledge. Also, how do they and you think we do with handling coaches that are ragging on us (are we too tough or are we to lenient, and why). How do they and you, now that you've been to the school, think we handle our coaching encounters. What are things we should do with our interactions with the coaches (and assistants) and various situations like bean-balls, players dissing players, showing umpires up (and list some of the ways they show us up or play us and we are totally unaware that we are being played or shown up), etc. and coaches that refuse to leave but you don't want to forfeit or suspend although maybe you have to. Come on, help us out and let us know some of what you learned, if we had anyone who went this year or last year and was not chosen and is not going back for another try. Thanks.

Oh yeh, congrats to all you guys who made it, and to all those who went to the school. It sounds like a unique experience that every umpire should be able to experience. Unfortunately, life does not always provide even the chance sometimes.

I have not been to a pro school but I have been taught by guys that have and even some who have been instructors. There is a huge difference between how they handle pro coaches and how we handle amatuer coaches. What we say and how we say it is going to be completely different. Pro coaches are expected to have a certain knowledge level and an understanding the interaction between umpires and coaches.

On the other side of the coin there is a huge difference between what is put up with at the amatuer level as opposed to the pro level. While I will concede that youth coaches need more explanation and even a little finesse with where the line is, on the whole too many amatuer umpires put up with too much crap. How a situation is handled is very different but the starting point should be pretty close to the same.

[kcfan102]

One thing they told us was that most of us have the judgment needed to call 90% of a pro game, as in an MLB game. As all of us know, usually, the higher level of ball you work, the easier it gets. The other 10% that we can't call has to do with situations with managers (never call a manager a coach, even at pro school, they'll slip out).

And even that, AA umpires do not know how to handle situations in the bigs, AAA umpires don't know how to handle situations in the bigs. I was told by some apprentice instructors (A and Rookie ball umpires) that ejection in Rookie ball are far less common then that of AAA or AA games, so, even within the minor leagues, handling situations are different.

As far as handling situations this is what we were taught. When possible...

1. Ignore

2. Acknowledge

3. Warn

4. Eject

I know that has been on the board before and that's what we were taught too. We were taught to keep it simple (KISS [Keep It Simple, Stupid])

I can't go over EVERYTHING we were taught. From what I've been reading on this board, it seems pretty similar.

Surprisingly, there wasn't a whole heck of a lot that I learned mechanics wise. I studied the Red book pretty good and most of that stuff he covered. Of course, Jimmy uses the Maximizing book and it's worth the money. The first and third base library was new to me. Also, how to handle a rundown between third and home with multiple runners got cleared up, which I was always iffy on.

And dumbdumb, I went down there without pro ambitions, and I essentially turned down a spot at PBUC, the past few years I've been getting more involved in teaching young umpires. That mixed with wanting to finish my degree and a girlfriend of 3 years, along with family and friends that I could not do without, pro ball just wasn't for me. So I don't mind sharing you my experiences from pro school. I respect the guys at JEAPU more than I do most people. They run a very tight ship over there and recommend anyone to go there.

Now, Mazz is going to PBUC, and unfortunately, aside from emails or facebook messages, Mazz will probably have to become a lurker. But Mazz will be in Florida again in a week or two and I'm sure he's love to answer any questions you had as well. Mazz, from the bottom of my heart, I wish you well.

As far as dealing with coaches. We were told that less is more when you talk to coaches. And really, you should never really have to discuss anything with a coach, usually only a manager. Like i said before, don't ever call them coach. Now in the leagues most of us do, coach is usually acceptable. Heck, every now and then a coach won't like it if I call them by their name, go figure. Treat them with respect, Jim talked about how he hated the term "RATS", he thought that was too much of a negative attitude towards them. If a coach is coming out at you, don't ever walk towards them, let them come to you, that way he looks like the aggressor. Don't ever stoop down to their level in the conversation, even in pro ball, refrain from using profanities and don't raise your voice, let him do all of that and when you write your report, put that in there. When you eject, make is short, but crisp, eject him without showing him up (even though he may be trying to show you up). All in all, be professional.

I'm sorry if this post is a bit scatter brained, I just kind of have a lot of information, but don't know how to organize it all really well.

Now this... I don't want anybody to think that I am better than them because I went to pro school.I believe that there is always somebody better. There are a couple of people here (home) that have been and think they are the greatest thing since sliced bread because they made it to the Appy league or just went to pro school. I have this education that I am very grateful for but I will only use it in MY games or clinics I may teach locally. If you guys have specific questions, I will be more than happier to answer based on what I learned in Florida, but that doesn't make what I say fact and what others say fiction. Have respect for the game, and respect for yourself. I'm super happy that my cage group did well, and am tickled to death that Mazz is goin to PBUC. My heart goes out to all those guys and all the guys in the minors right now. It's not an easy road to travel and I have the ultimate respect for them.

[mstaylor]

Well said Brandon, what I was trying to say was the handling of a coach shouldn't be all that different except we may have to explain the rules a bit more. What we shouldn't be doing, and it happens too much, is letting them get away with murder under the guise of keeping them in the game. Too many guys fail to eject, or even warn, when they should and then the problem escalates. Pro umpires are taught to shut problems down as the happen. Amatuer umpires will let things slide and then it can go south on them.

[dumbdumb]

Too many guys fail to eject, or even warn, when they should and then the problem escalates. Pro umpires are taught to shut problems down as the happen. Amatuer umpires will let things slide and then it can go south on them.

Why???

Are they afraid they will be, what's that term?, oh yes, blackballed if they eject or quickly shut them down. And, if so, why is that?

What happened with you early in your amateur umpiring career? Did you fail to eject when you should and why. Would it affect your schedule. If so, why did you let that bother you? If they didn't want you to eject a coach or player, when they should be ejected, why didn't you just quit, rather than keep them in the game just to keep getting games. Did you loose games or a have your scheduled pulled or altered due to ejection? Why? Do the assignor's ever tell the coaches to leave the umpires alone? Do the assignors ever tell the coaches they have been told by the assignor to eject coaches if they display unsportsmanlike conduct rather than keep them in the game. Do assignor's make so much money that they cannot afford to back the umpires. Are you or have you ever been and assignor. Did you tell the coaches pre-season that they are to be ejected for unsportsmanlike conduct and explain 10 or 20 situations, and more, that you wanted them and the players ejected for, and tell them what they should be warned for first and also tell the umpires those exact same situations and then back up the umpires and still get to keep your assignor job, or were you gonged for backing umpires, because the coaches rule and want bad sportsmanship to go unpunished, and just use umpires as a punching bag. Do they want umpires they can intimidate into a call at a crucial moment?, and ask for those umpires, some of whom might be pretty good, yet can still be intimidated, or use the ole, you will not work our games any more intimidation.

How does the above contrast with how you officiate now??? Do you care if ejections may lead to having your schedule pulled and how does it now compared to back to when you started. Is there a way to be the most complete red-ass, I believe is the term, but do it in such a way that the coaches don't know you are being a red-ass or better yet think??? they are getting the better of you and they really are not. It seems that the last statement would be the key to umpire heaven (being a red-ass, or being an umpire who doesn't take any crap, but the coach thinks?? he gets an advantage with you, and you are really a Bill Klem or Bruce Froemming in disguise(when he doesn't get anything from you, he just thinks he does.)

I am not trying to be accusatory or mean, or show disrespect, or anything else you would like to call the above. I am not saying any of the above ever happened to you or am I trying to demean you if it did. I am just seeking out information from your experience over the years, as I believe you are no longer a 22 year old whipper-snapper, and can give some insight on the above. If talking about this subject would get you in trouble, then please do not answer. Thanks for your help. Sorry I do not write (thoughts, punctuation, grammar, run on sentences, etc etc, or explain well and ramble).

[mstaylor]

I have been an assignor for many leagues for many levels. I have been a trainer at the LL,Pony, HS and college levels. I am also the interpreter for HS and LL and have been at the college level. We all have had to learn our own method for controling games. It differs between levels, experience and type of personality.

In my years of teaching and supervising umpires I have seen and recieved complaints about games getting away from them or problem coaches and leagues. I took over assigning a league some years back and guys told me they didn't want to work it because the coaches were out of control. My response was why were they, why weren't they taking care of business. I told them to shut problems down when needed, eject when appropriate, I would back them. In my years on the internet I have been presented with case after case of guys letting things go. I know of states or leagues that discourage ejections but don't do anything to discourage bad behavior.

Some umpires don't eject because they are afraid they will lose games. Others just don't conflict or don't have the rules knowledge to back their argument.

I actually have received top assignments because I am known to handle tough coaches and have the rules knowledge to get out of sticky situations. The question was what was the difference between the pro level and amatuer level.

[kcfan102]

If you figure out how to handle situations, you as an umpire, have it made. That is the toughest part of our job. Mechanics and all that other stiff can be taught with X's and O's. There are some "magic words" or "magic actions" that will get a manager or coach tossed.

The thing about baseball is, we let managers come out an talk to us about a call we made (or didn't make). Even though by rule, we don't have to, we let them do it.

Imagine this:

Manager: "Brandon that ball is low"

Brandon: "SKIP YOU'RE DONE!!"

Manager: "You sure he beat that throw, Brandon?"

Brandon: "SKIP, YOU'RE DONE!!"

Manager: "Brandon what did you have on that play at home? It looks like my guy got his hand in there."

Brandon: "SKIP, YOU'RE DONE!!"

We either answer these questions, or ignore the minor remarks that make. We need to. So where do you draw the line? Where you draw the lines is completely dependent on the level of ball you work, where you work, or what you personally won't accept.

I know my roommate, MoBlue has told me stories while we were down in Florida of things coaches and parents have said to him and he didn't eject them. Most of the time when he told me he didn't eject I was baffled. But I needed to realize that there is no assignor where he works. The teams recuit their own umpires, so, if he ejects the member of the wrong team, he no longer works for that team, and maybe he loses 20 games that season. Is that right? By no means is that right. But are you going to blame the umpire who is trying to get experience to go into pro ball or indy ball? No, not at all, you are going to blame the system down there. On the other hand, me here in KC, I have an assignor that will back us 100% if we have to toss. So the answer to: "how to handle situations" is dependent on the level, location, and your personal preference.

Know what level of ball you are doing. Usually in the younger amateur leagues, the coaches don't know how to talk to you about calls they disapprove of. To me, that means I shut them down quick, for their own protection. I don't want to eject anybody. I want to have a nice, hard played game. But even more than that, I want to keep my integrity, and if that means skip has to go, then skip has to go. Usually in the upper levels of amateur ball and in pro ball, the manager know how to talk to you, so usually I'll give them a bit longer of a leash.

Where are you working? If you're working in in a rural area and/or you depend on coaches to get you games, you have a decision to make. Is working more important that getting walked all over? Two sides to this, what good can an umpire be if he is not working? But then again, whats the point in working if you are just going to get yelled at? Find a happy medium, and i believe my roommate did a good job of that. But me, I have a good support system here, I'm not afraid to toss by any means.

The next factor that comes into handling situations is your personal preference. Wanna be strict with the rule book and not let coaches say their peace? Fine, run 'em. If not, how far are you going to let them go? What deserves a warning? What deserves an ejection without a warning? Well, there are some guidelines, but no concrete answers.

Ignore

Acknowledge

Warn

Eject

If you get all of those in, your ejection report will be solid. I believe you should, if possible, let a coach know when you've had enough, let him know the next button he pushes is going to send him packing. Let the little stuff go, not many people want an umpire with rabbit ears.

But there are times when you can't get a warning in, like if a coach comes out of the box and calls you horsesh!t. You're done, right there.

The difference in pro ball in amateur ball is this: one is playing for money, the other isn't. The automatic ejections are automatic no matter what level you do. Kicking dirt, spitting, throwing equipment in protest, drawing lines; those are all automatic in any league, in any level. However, I know in my league and my tournaments any vulgar language is automatic as well. But if a manager comes up to an umpire during an argument and says "Brandon, my runner had his hand on the plate before the g*d da*n ball got to the catcher." I may toss him, but it won't be for swearing. But everything in between, like the chirping, you have to just know when enough is enough. And, when that point comes up, put a stop to it.

[mstaylor]

Very well written post Brandon. I agree that games being assigned by coaches is a terrible system but it happens in many areas. Many youth leagues use a similar system, I developed a reputation for handling trouble games and have never worried about losing assignments but I can see where that would be a worry. I found that most want a well ordered game than a homer in most cases.

I will give an example of not tossing or waiting too long. I was watching a LL Majors game and the PU was a longtime volunteer umpire that does a decent job but doesn't want rock the boat. The home manager was in first place and a very good friend of the PU. He was getting killed by the last place team and his mouth started. Finally he comes to the PU complaining the opposing coaches were yelling at his infielders when they were trying to catch popups. The PU said he hadn't heard anything but he would address it with the other coach. The coach lost it and went into a tirade about it was impossible he couldn't have been aware. The PU asked him to settle and he would address it. He kept escalating and the PU actually pleaded with him to settle down and return to the dugout. He finally tossed him. The coach refused to leave the dugout or put his team on the field so the umpire suspended the game. The asst finally got rid of him and they finished the game. I talked to the PU after the game and asked why the devil he let it go as long as he did. He felt as a friend he couldn't toss him. I told him that the coach had no problem being a jerk and throwing his friend under the bus, why would he think he should have worried about it.

I live in a fairly rural area so you umpire coaches that you know quite well. I actually tossed my boss once. In my area I don't have to be a redass because everyone knows I can be. My ejections are very, very few.

[dumbdumb]

Thanks MST and KCF

Good info to store in the database in the back of your mind. This was exactly what I was trying to ask. If anyone ejects immediately, the ""very""""first"""" time"" someone says what KCF said in his first 3 examples, they just may not be cut out for umpiring. However, "continually" ragging on these things must be dealt immediately IMHO (just trying to read between the lines, how you personally interpret the word "continually", is what will define you in your career IMHO--if you act on continually too quickly you are red-arse, and not quickly enough a wuss. "You can talk to this guy but don't mess with him", would be the ideal definition of the "continually formula" and is probably the trait of the most successful umpires, "if" you can find that ""point"", within your own personality).

and, yes, MST I got away from the original question, but,,, I just get worried that umpires who eject for "reasonable cause" might get blackballed in certain areas, which I think is totally unfair. I do not think umpires should be a punching bag for abuse just to get games, and possibly very good games due to the fact they will not let coaches get away with unsportsmanlike conduct. It seems, in your area at least, coaches understand the game from that perspective. They know if they get out of line they will be ejected and they do not have to worry that the other coach will ""work"" the officials to steal the phrase from some ole basketball announcer I once heard. Unfortunately, I worry that in other areas it is just the opposite of your area, with blackballing and reduced schedules the penalty, and assignors cow-tailing to, and coddling coaches and turning a blind eye towards poor sportsmanship due to a nice stream of assigning revenue involved, which could also involve assigning themselves to highly desired games if they umpire themselves. Maybe they don't get crap simply because they are the assignor even if they are not a good umpire. Of course I realize that good sportsmanship starts at the top with each states High School Athletic Association. If they have a non-tolerance, hold no prisoners attitude for poor sportsmanship and demand sportsmanship first from coaches and for assignors to back up the officials and report violations, that could end many things I have said earlier, if they occur. However, sometimes from what I have seen (HSAA) are there more for the coaches (schools) than the officials which is where their "bread is buttered" so to speak, and maybe I am totally (100%) wrong in everything I have mentioned.

My last thought.

MST and KCF, since it seems you guys have assignors that back you 100%.

Can those who come to this forum who are good umpires move to your area and work, if we can find good 40 hour a week jobs that allow time for umpiring? Need any help or are all your positions full. Oops, I forgot rule number 1, officiating is an avocation.

[mstaylor]

Love to have you. I have a really unique situation in adult ball, that league's entire board is run by umpires. There are four of us that run the league and tournaments, including an Eastern Regional.

[UmpTTS43]

If you figure out how to handle situations, you as an umpire, have it made. That is the toughest part of our job. Mechanics and all that other stiff can be taught with X's and O's. There are some "magic words" or "magic actions" that will get a manager or coach tossed.

The thing about baseball is, we let managers come out an talk to us about a call we made (or didn't make). Even though by rule, we don't have to, we let them do it.

Imagine this:

Manager: "Brandon that ball is low"

Brandon: "SKIP YOU'RE DONE!!"

Manager: "You sure he beat that throw, Brandon?"

Brandon: "SKIP, YOU'RE DONE!!"

Manager: "Brandon what did you have on that play at home? It looks like my guy got his hand in there."

Brandon: "SKIP, YOU'RE DONE!!"

We either answer these questions, or ignore the minor remarks that make. We need to. So where do you draw the line? Where you draw the lines is completely dependent on the level of ball you work, where you work, or what you personally won't accept.

I know my roommate, MoBlue has told me stories while we were down in Florida of things coaches and parents have said to him and he didn't eject them. Most of the time when he told me he didn't eject I was baffled. But I needed to realize that there is no assignor where he works. The teams recuit their own umpires, so, if he ejects the member of the wrong team, he no longer works for that team, and maybe he loses 20 games that season. Is that right? By no means is that right. But are you going to blame the umpire who is trying to get experience to go into pro ball or indy ball? No, not at all, you are going to blame the system down there. On the other hand, me here in KC, I have an assignor that will back us 100% if we have to toss. So the answer to: "how to handle situations" is dependent on the level, location, and your personal preference.

Know what level of ball you are doing. Usually in the younger amateur leagues, the coaches don't know how to talk to you about calls they disapprove of. To me, that means I shut them down quick, for their own protection. I don't want to eject anybody. I want to have a nice, hard played game. But even more than that, I want to keep my integrity, and if that means skip has to go, then skip has to go. Usually in the upper levels of amateur ball and in pro ball, the manager know how to talk to you, so usually I'll give them a bit longer of a leash.

Where are you working? If you're working in in a rural area and/or you depend on coaches to get you games, you have a decision to make. Is working more important that getting walked all over? Two sides to this, what good can an umpire be if he is not working? But then again, whats the point in working if you are just going to get yelled at? Find a happy medium, and i believe my roommate did a good job of that. But me, I have a good support system here, I'm not afraid to toss by any means.

The next factor that comes into handling situations is your personal preference. Wanna be strict with the rule book and not let coaches say their peace? Fine, run 'em. If not, how far are you going to let them go? What deserves a warning? What deserves an ejection without a warning? Well, there are some guidelines, but no concrete answers.

Ignore

Acknowledge

Warn

Eject

If you get all of those in, your ejection report will be solid. I believe you should, if possible, let a coach know when you've had enough, let him know the next button he pushes is going to send him packing. Let the little stuff go, not many people want an umpire with rabbit ears.

But there are times when you can't get a warning in, like if a coach comes out of the box and calls you horsesh!t. You're done, right there.

The difference in pro ball in amateur ball is this: one is playing for money, the other isn't. The automatic ejections are automatic no matter what level you do. Kicking dirt, spitting, throwing equipment in protest, drawing lines; those are all automatic in any league, in any level. However, I know in my league and my tournaments any vulgar language is automatic as well. But if a manager comes up to an umpire during an argument and says "Brandon, my runner had his hand on the plate before the g*d da*n ball got to the catcher." I may toss him, but it won't be for swearing. But everything in between, like the chirping, you have to just know when enough is enough. And, when that point comes up, put a stop to it.

Spoken like a true Jimmy's guy. ;)

[kcfan102]

Damn proud too

Did you go to a school? If so, which one?

[mazzamouth]

Where do I start.LOL

i leave for PBUC on mon, ( I'm driving down which is almost 10 hours) we are going to a pre clinic with a an instructor at Harry's for a refresher. I report to PBUC on Weds.. I have not been told to not talk on Message boards ( yet) i know it is coming..LOL

Some on was talking about the difference between guys who have been trained professionally or amateurs.. Big thing is hustle, Timing, presence, rule book knowledge, mechanics...

Handling situations is fun, and no two situations are alike. yes what KCfan told about the 4 things is a good way to handle things..

Coach.. Mike where is that pitch

Me.. i had it outside... he asked a question, so answer it... if he keeps asking tell him " hey where not going do this all game...

Coach " where the F*&k is that pitch

Me... Hey knock it off.... this is a warning for arguing balls and strikes.. ( you do not have to tell him directly to not argue balls and strikes.. knock it off, that's enough.. etc..etc will do )

Next pitch

Coach... Hey that pitch is a strike

Me.. your done...

now your probably not gonna get the cruse words at the amateur level.

But at the Pro level we will...

I had been to a bunch of really good 3 man college clinics.. and thought I was doing pretty good, heck I already was getting Non Conference D1 games without a pro school.. But know things are slow to me, I have more confidence on the field, im not as timid, or afraid of a argument, the school gives it to you.. I became really good friends with a guy who went to Jimmy's last year, and he still learned stuff at Harry's.. which one is better? Well for Me Harry's, ask KCfan or Moblue they will tell you Jim's.. but the point is you went and learned.. and was trained professionally..

I was talking to my partner today,a nd said if you have the money and time, and ever thought of going, pull the trigger, it is a lot of fun, you learn a bunch, and make some really good friends..

BTW Daytona Beach is Nice in jan I saw from My balcony Dolphins and whales..it was only in the 50's one time, the rest it was upper 60's and even hit 80 once...LOL

[kcfan102]

Where do I start.LOL

i leave for PBUC on mon, ( I'm driving down which is almost 10 hours) we are going to a pre clinic with a an instructor at Harry's for a refresher. I report to PBUC on Weds.. I have not been told to not talk on Message boards ( yet) i know it is coming..LOL

Some on was talking about the difference between guys who have been trained professionally or amateurs.. Big thing is hustle, Timing, presence, rule book knowledge, mechanics...

Handling situations is fun, and no two situations are alike. yes what KCfan told about the 4 things is a good way to handle things..

Coach.. Mike where is that pitch

Me.. i had it outside... he asked a question, so answer it... if he keeps asking tell him " hey where not going do this all game...

Coach " where the F*&k is that pitch

Me... Hey knock it off.... this is a warning for arguing balls and strikes.. ( you do not have to tell him directly to not argue balls and strikes.. knock it off, that's enough.. etc..etc will do )

Next pitch

Coach... Hey that pitch is a strike

Me.. your done...

now your probably not gonna get the cruse words at the amateur level.

But at the Pro level we will...

I had been to a bunch of really good 3 man college clinics.. and thought I was doing pretty good, heck I already was getting Non Conference D1 games without a pro school.. But know things are slow to me, I have more confidence on the field, im not as timid, or afraid of a argument, the school gives it to you.. I became really good friends with a guy who went to Jimmy's last year, and he still learned stuff at Harry's.. which one is better? Well for Me Harry's, ask KCfan or Moblue they will tell you Jim's.. but the point is you went and learned.. and was trained professionally..

I was talking to my partner today,a nd said if you have the money and time, and ever thought of going, pull the trigger, it is a lot of fun, you learn a bunch, and make some really good friends..

BTW Daytona Beach is Nice in jan I saw from My balcony Dolphins and whales..it was only in the 50's one time, the rest it was upper 60's and even hit 80 once...LOL

Everything Mazz said is what we were taught too. And I was thinking... if for some reason I wanted to go back to JEA next year, I bet I would learn even more. Even though the material won't change a bunch, I think it's impossible to pick up everything while you're down there. I think you could probably go two or three times before you pick up everything.

And Mazz, you're a lucky bast*rd, I have yet to work a game since I've been to pro school, but I look forward to those comforting traits you mentioned.

Good luck at PBUC and make us all proud.