Unreported Sub - How we're told to handle

[Daniel]

A few weeks ago I had my first "unreported sub", ever. The rule set we use requires the unreported sub to be disqualified from participating from the game, and an ejection of the head coach. After the game we were talking about it, and our assignor/UIC for the tournament was present and said this to us in handling unreported subs for the tourneys he assigns:

"These teams pay <insert $$ here> to play in these tournaments. If this comes up, just tell the other coach you got the change and just forgot to report it to them. I do it all the time and never had any problems."

Hearing that made me sick to my stomach. Is this really a good way of handling this to avoid the ejection and disqualification of the player?? Sure the penalty may seem "harsh", but that is the rule we are paid to enforce. I don't care what teams pay...I don't set the tourney fees. :violin:

[semper_fi_72]

A few weeks ago I had my first "unreported sub", ever. The rule set we use requires the unreported sub to be disqualified from participating from the game, and an ejection of the head coach. After the game we were talking about it, and our assignor/UIC for the tournament was present and said this to us in handling unreported subs for the tourneys he assigns:

"These teams pay <insert $$ here> to play in these tournaments. If this comes up, just tell the other coach you got the change and just forgot to report it to them. I do it all the time and never had any problems."

Hearing that made me sick to my stomach. Is this really a good way of handling this to avoid the ejection and disqualification of the player?? Sure the penalty may seem "harsh", but that is the rule we are paid to enforce. I don't care what teams pay...I don't set the tourney fees.

They should change the rule then, but if the Assignor/UIC tells you verbally then he has changed the rule.

Better care about what teams pay for tourney fees, Their Tourney Fees are paying YOU!!!!!!!!

They are the customer and unless you satisfy the customer they won't be coming back and you won't have games.

[Jocko]

Gotta do what you're told. As long as they tell you ahead of the s**tstorm, you're good. After the fact is never good. Chalk it up to experience and learn from it. It might help to cover announcing subs at the plate meeting so both coaches remember to tell you.

[grayhawk]

So you are supposed to look like an idiot because of their preposterous local rule? Keep in mind that any decent umpire will report changes to the opposing coach, so you are basically telling him, "yeah, I got the change and didn't tell you about it."

[johnnyg08]

What rule set are your using? It has to be some stupid house rule. Are you sure it was unreported subs and not illegal subs?

[Jocko]

All youth levels I call, up to and including HS, unreported subs are exactly that

[johnnyg08]

An unreported sub in FED rules is nothing as long as the unreported sub is a legal sub.

[Jocko]

Yep. He is a sub that is unreported. Completely legal.

[Daniel]

PONY rule set, softball. It was not announced to me or the opposing team, and it was caught. No $hitstorm ensued.

And semper, I'm surprised to hear this:

Better care about what teams pay for tourney fees, Their Tourney Fees are paying YOU!!!!!!!! They are the customer and unless you satisfy the customer they won't be coming back and you won't have games.

They pay to play in the tournament and abide by the rules. Thinking other wise could prove to be a piss poor mentality, IMO.

Oh, and they are not MY customers. If that were so, then I'd have to abide by the "customer is always right" rule - and we won't touch that one.

I've taken approach the approach that I came to the game to umpire and enforce the established rules, and it doesn't have to make the teams happy. We still have plenty of tournaments with a lot of teams, and I still manage to get plenty of assignments, so I'm doing something right.

I'll edit to note that if they don't like the rule, complain to HQ and get the rule changed.

[johnnyg08]

Remember, what's the best way to get rid of a bad rule?

Answer: ENFORCE IT!

[carolinablue]

That one's up there with must slide.

[MPLSMatt]

Not saying you are wrong (I don't do any Pony) but that seems awfully harsh for a youth tourney, especially given what the FED rule is (essentially, once caught, just add them to your line up card and the person they are in place of is out [or has used their one out of the game if they are a starter]).

Can the person that they subbed out reenter if the unreported sub is EJed? Like I said, seems like a bad rule for a youth ball organization.

[bam]

After being informed of this rule to be ignored, did you ask about any other rules you need to be aware of that you should ignore?

[Daniel]

Can the person that they subbed out reenter if the unreported sub is EJed? Like I said, seems like a bad rule for a youth ball organization.

The "sub" never occurred since it was unreported, so the person they "subbed" for is still in the lineup.

And bam...you nailed it, literally. You have to draw a line somewhere. There may be rules where we get lee-way in judgement, but this isn't one of them.

PONY is the only one that I know of that requires removal of the HC.

[Rich Ives]

Can the person that they subbed out reenter if the unreported sub is EJed? Like I said, seems like a bad rule for a youth ball organization.

The "sub" never occurred since it was unreported, so the person they "subbed" for is still in the lineup.

And bam...you nailed it, literally. You have to draw a line somewhere. There may be rules where we get lee-way in judgement, but this isn't one of them.

PONY is the only one that I know of that requires removal of the HC.

WOW! I went and looked it up. It is a real PONY softball rule.

[Daniel]

FWIW the rule was changed to this two years ago, to add the coach ejection.

[johnnyg08]

That's crazy.

[SoCal Lurker]

FWIW the rule was changed to this two years ago, to add the coach ejection.

There must be a story behind why that rule was changed . . . love to hear what happened . . .

[Pete Peterson Sr]

All youth levels I call, up to and including HS, unreported subs are exactly that

Incorrect. An unreported substitute is, provided he is not an ILLEGAL sub, considered entered as soon as he takes the place of the player for whom he is entering/ No announcement is required.

[JaxRolo]

All youth levels I call, up to and including HS, unreported subs are exactly that

Incorrect. An unreported substitute is, provided he is not an ILLEGAL sub, considered entered as soon as he takes the place of the player for whom he is entering/ No announcement is required.

I think you both are saying the same thing.

[mjr_2013]

So what does the UIC/Assigner expect you to do when a coach doesn't know that he is supposed to report his subs? Or realizes that this is what you're told and trys to play games?

Say a coach does it multiple times in a game.

First time... "Sorry coach he told me and I forgot to tell you. My bad."... "It's ok. Accidents happen."

Second time... "Coach I did it again. I am really sorry. My fault."... "Come on, again? Get your head in the game."

Third time... "Coach, I'm sorry, I forgot to tell you again."... "WTF are you dumb or just stupid."

And it won't take three times for some coaches. Isn't there a point where you HAVE to enforce the rule?

[krwill96]

Cal ripkens rule for tournaments at least is an unannounced substitute to the official scorer is an out and any advancement by the runners due to the batters actions is nullified and they return to their bases at TOP.

I thought it was a weird rule, is there any other league with the same rule?

[Jocko]

All youth levels I call, up to and including HS, unreported subs are exactly that

Incorrect. An unreported substitute is, provided he is not an ILLEGAL sub, considered entered as soon as he takes the place of the player for whom he is entering/ No announcement is required.

Incorrect in saying I'm incorrect. We said the same thing. Let me break it down for the people in the cheap seats. In the levels I call, up to and including HS, an unreported sub is exactly that. He's an unreported sub. and since Fed rules do not require check in entry, it is legal, so long as he is legal. We agree, I just didn't write a complete synopsis of the rule.

[Jocko]

All youth levels I call, up to and including HS, unreported subs are exactly that

Incorrect. An unreported substitute is, provided he is not an ILLEGAL sub, considered entered as soon as he takes the place of the player for whom he is entering/ No announcement is required.

I think you both are saying the same thing.

He knows the rule. I know he knows the rule. I know the rule. he knows I know the rule. I know the he knows that I know the rule. He knows that I know that he knows that I know the rule. I know that he knows that I know th..................

[Pete Peterson Sr]

All youth levels I call, up to and including HS, unreported subs are exactly that

Incorrect. An unreported substitute is, provided he is not an ILLEGAL sub, considered entered as soon as he takes the place of the player for whom he is entering/ No announcement is required.

I think you both are saying the same thing.

He knows the rule. I know he knows the rule. I know the rule. he knows I know the rule. I know the he knows that I know the rule. He knows that I know that he knows that I know the rule. I know that he knows that I know th..................

He knows the rule. He apparently CAN'T READ ! I totally mis-read what you said, and proceeded to correct you. (I'll buckle down, coach, and give you a great game the rest of the way...)

See ? I can admit when I kick one...