Out? Involuntary release... etc

[stl_ump]

Rec ball 15 and up

Play at first... BR is out by 2 or 3 steps. F3 stretches for ball and gloves it. He stays in that position for a good 2 or 3 seconds. He slowly comes up to a standing position, lifts his hand up, and oops... the ball comes out of his glove.

Now the time from when he caught the ball to to the drop probably took a good 5 secs or so and the runner was "out by a mile" There wasn't any question as to whether he had it or not. (not a snow cone catch or he was working his glove to make sure he had it)

So would you consider this an out and two seperate occurances? (catching the ball and then standing up) Or one, long drawn out action with an involuntary relase at the end?

Thanks

[scrounge]

If it truly was that long, that's an out to me.

[stl_ump]

Yes... in baseball time, it was very long.

[UmpJM]

On a tag, the requirement is secure possession in his hand or glove at the time of the tag.

There is no "voluntary and intentional release" requirement on a tag as there is on a catch.

JM

[stl_ump]

Would the "catch " be on a thrown ball or batted ball or does it matter?

[UmpJM]

stl_ump,

The "technical definition" of a catch applies only to batted and pitched balls. It really has no meaning with respect to a thrown ball.

JM

[stl_ump]

So then how do we define "if he had possesion / control"?

[noumpere]

So then how do we define "if he had possesion / control"?

Sometimes you have to umpire. And the act of lifting the glove was separate from the act of gloving the throw. Get the out.

[JaxRolo]

So then how do we define "if he had possesion / control"?

Sometimes you have to umpire. And the act of lifting the glove was separate from the act of gloving the throw. Get the out.

Another good post! That's 2 in a row! lol

[sdix00]

So then how do we define "if he had possesion / control"?

Sometimes you have to umpire. And the act of lifting the glove was separate from the act of gloving the throw. Get the out.

[Jocko]

When in doubt, get the out.

[Fittske24]

First.....Voluntary release applies to all "gloved" balls used for the purpose of recording an out regardless if they were thrown or batted.

Second....There is no "time requirement" used when judging voluntary release. Simply holding the ball long enough does not qualify an act to be voluntary release.

Third.... To have voluntary release, a player must first be judged to have had secure possession of the ball and then the player must "intentionally" release the ball from his mitt. A player can do this several ways. The most common is hand in mitt and pulling it out. However the player can also flip the ball out of his glove to another player or to an open hand. If the player does not "intentionally" release the ball, the ball is to be considered to have been dropped.

[UmpJM]

First.....Voluntary release applies to all "gloved" balls used for the purpose of recording an out regardless if they were thrown or batted.

Fittske,

Cite please.

I disagree.

JM

[Replacematt]

I concur in this dissent.

[JHSump]

I think Fittske has a case.

OBR defines Catch and Tag. Yes, Catch applies to batted or pitched balls. Tag applies in the OP. Here are their definitions. Note the similarity of the the underlined parts.

A CATCH is the act of a fielder in getting secure possession in his hand or glove of

a ball in flight and firmly holding it; providing he does not use his cap, protector, pocket or

any other part of his uniform in getting possession. It is not a catch, however, if

simultaneously or immediately following his contact with the ball, he collides with a player,

or with a wall, or if he falls down, and as a result of such collision or falling, drops the ball.

It is not a catch if a fielder touches a fly ball which then hits a member of the offensive team

or an umpire and then is caught by another defensive player. In establishing the validity of

the catch, the fielder shall hold the ball long enough to prove that he has complete control of

the ball and that his release of the ball is voluntary and intentional. If the fielder has made

the catch and drops the ball while in the act of making a throw following the catch, the ball

shall be adjudged to have been caught.

A TAG is the action of a fielder in touching a base with his body while holding the

ball securely and firmly in his hand or glove; or touching a runner with the ball, or with his

hand or glove holding the ball, while holding the ball securely and firmly in his hand or

glove. It is not a tag, however, if simultaneously or immediately following his touching a

base or touching a runner, the fielder drops the ball. In establishing the validity of the tag,

the fielder shall hold the ball long enough to prove that he has complete control of the ball.

If the fielder has made a tag and drops the ball while in the act of making a throw following

the tag, the tag shall be adjudged to have been made.

The only difference between the two underlined parts is the absence of the "voluntary and intentional" release part from Tag. Is this part supposed to be implied in the Tag definition, given the similarity --- exact wording --- of the rest of those sentences????

Here is another citation:

Jaksa/Roder say that for a fielder to make a Tag, they must show complete control (as in the definition). Then J/R say demonstration of complete control can be done by "showing that his release of the ball is voluntary and intentional"...which is the same as in the case of a Catch.

I don't have any other reference materials, so I can't comment on what they say about the differences and similarities of Catch and Tag.

Can someone with other references weigh in?

[Fittske24]

A CATCH is the act of a fielder in getting secure possession in his hand or glove of a ball in flight and firmly holding it; providing he does not use his cap, protector, pocket or any other part of his uniform in getting possession. It is not a catch, however, if simultaneously or immediately following his contact with the ball, he collides with a player, or with a wall, or if he falls down, and as a result of such collision or falling, drops the ball. It is not a catch if a fielder touches a fly ball which then hits a member of the offensive team or an umpire and then is caught by another defensive player. In establishing the validity of the catch, the fielder shall hold the ball long enough to prove that he has complete control of the ball and that his release of the ball is voluntary and intentional. If the fielder has made the catch and drops the ball while in the act of making a throw following the catch, the ball shall be adjudged to have been caught.

A TAG is the action of a fielder in touching a base with his body while holding the ball securely and firmly in his hand or glove; or touching a runner with the ball, or with his hand or glove holding the ball, while holding the ball securely and firmly in his hand or glove. It is not a tag, however, if simultaneously or immediately following his touching a base or touching a runner, the fielder drops the ball. In establishing the validity of the tag, the fielder shall hold the ball long enough to prove that he has complete control of the ball. If the fielder has made a tag and drops the ball while in the act of making a throw following the tag, the tag shall be adjudged to have been made.

MLB rule interp.#7 interpretation of Rule 2:00: legal catch

A ball will be ruled caught when the momentum of the catch is completed and the player voluntarily releases the ball

[Replacematt]

The definition (and MLBUM interpretation) of catch are irrelevant.

[stl_ump]

So then how do we define "if he had possesion / control"?

Sometimes you have to umpire. And the act of lifting the glove was separate from the act of gloving the throw. Get the out.

I like this...

[Fittske24]

The definition (and MLBUM interpretation) of catch are irrelevant.

How is it irrelevant?

[Replacematt]

It has nothing to do with a tag.

While J/R used to be a good tool, it is no longer. Too many interpretations that have been superseded by authoritative opinion (such as MLBUM) or by more persuasive and credible opinion (such as JEA and WUM.) This interpretation is a prime example. No one else subscribes to it.

[UmpTTS43]

As stated above, there are different requirements in determining whether or not a player has control of the ball during a tag versus catching a ball in flight. During a tag, a player must show complete control during and immediately after the tag attempt. A player does not need to demonstrate "voluntary release" after a legal tag has been made, only that he had complete control of the ball during and immediately after the tag and that the ball did not come out as a result of the tag. A player can tag a runner during a rundown, show control during and immediately after the tag, fall down and subsequently drop the ball. This is a legal tag as long as you judge the ball fell out, not as a result of the tag, but because of other factors, ie glove hitting the ground.

The NCAA recently amended their interpretation of control during a tag such that the player must have control throughout the tag attempt, during and after. In NCAA, if a tag is made and the player subsequently falls to the ground, this player must demonstrate complete control until he has reestablished body control, similar to making a legal catch.

[Jocko]

Definitions, interpretations, he said-she said.

I know it when I see it. Be a damn umpire!

[noumpere]

So then how do we define "if he had possesion / control"?

Sometimes you have to umpire. And the act of lifting the glove was separate from the act of gloving the throw. Get the out.

Another good post! That's 2 in a row! lol

I should go play the lottery lol. I will point out that my comment on lifting the glove applies to this play and is not meant as a generic description that can apply to all plays.

Also in HS the term Catch applies approximately to both thrown and batted balls. In pro rules its not defined either way so some use it and some dont. I personally believe your better off using it and the guidelines that are presented for all the games we do (and the same for a tag as someone mentioned regarding the ncaa interpritation on this)

[johnnyg08]

As stated above, there are different requirements in determining whether or not a player has control of the ball during a tag versus catching a ball in flight. During a tag, a player must show complete control during and immediately after the tag attempt. A player does not need to demonstrate "voluntary release" after a legal tag has been made, only that he had complete control of the ball during and immediately after the tag and that the ball did not come out as a result of the tag. A player can tag a runner during a rundown, show control during and immediately after the tag, fall down and subsequently drop the ball. This is a legal tag as long as you judge the ball fell out, not as a result of the tag, but because of other factors, ie glove hitting the ground.

The NCAA recently amended their interpretation of control during a tag such that the player must have control throughout the tag attempt, during and after. In NCAA, if a tag is made and the player subsequently falls to the ground, this player must demonstrate complete control until he has reestablished body control, similar to making a legal catch.

Good post umptts43

[UmpJM]

As is clear from the text of the rules (i.e., Definitions of "Catch" and "Tag") posted above, there is NO requirement for "voluntary release" to validate a tag as there is to validate a catch.

The only respected interp that suggests that "voluntary release" is a requisite condition of a valid tag is the J/R interp - and even J/R doesn't explicitly say that. It says it's "sufficient" evidence of a valid tag, but falls short of saying it is required.

The JEA interp is quite different, and agrees with the actual text of the rule:

When tagging a runner; a player must have secure possession of the ball in the hand which touches the runner, or, have secure possession of the ball in the glove which touches the runner.

In establishing the validity of secure possession at the time of a tag, the umpire should determine that the player held the ball long enough and did not juggle the ball or momentarily lose possession before gaining full control and touching the runner. Unlike a catch, a legal tag is based on the status of the ball at the time the runner or base is touched and not on the final proof of possession.

There was a play in the 2008 playoffs between the Red Sox and the Angels where, on a botched squeeze play, the R3 got in a rundown between home and 3B, and was eventually tagged by catcher Jason Varitek who, after the tag, stumbled due to his momentum in runnning after the runner, fell, and had the ball pop out of his mitt when his mitt hit the ground. The ruling was that it was a legal tag, and MLB stood by the ruling.

As long as secure possession is maintained throughout the tag - before, during, and after as UmpTT puts it - it's a valid tag.

JM