Does the run count?

[JacksFan]

So here was a situation that came up yesterday. Had runners on 1st and 3rd 2 out. Batter grounds to third who's throw pulls 1st base off the bag. Runner from 3rd crosses home before tag is applied. PU denies run from scoring even though BU said foot was pulled the tag was applied. PU said since it SHOULD have been a force the run doesn't count.. Does the run score? This was a costly run in a 1 run game. I think the run scores because the force was taken out of play due to an error. But just checking to see what you all have.

[mstaylor]

If I understand your OP, the throw pulled the F3 but he applied the tag on the BR before he touched first, for the last out. If this is correct then the run does not count.

[JacksFan]

Thanks, that was going to be a follow up if nobody mentioned it. I wasn't sure since the tag was before the bag.

[mstaylor]

If he reached first safely and made an attempt at second and was tagged, as long as the run scored before the tag then it scores. If the BR does not reach first safely then no run.

[JamesC]

As long as it is a force out, it doesn't matter if the base is tagged or the runner is tagged, with 2 outs, it will prevent the run from scoring.

[Guest kylejt]

Something is missing here.

If that tag was applied before the batter/runner touched first, anyone in the right mind denies the run.

Now, if you somehow had umpire that didn't have a complete grasp of their senses, and allowed the run, I'm sure the manager, knowing his job, lodged a proper protest, and was able to take that run off the board.

So what really happened here?

[kylejt]

Scratch what that imposter said.

Tag was made before the batter tounched first. Out, no runs score. That's Baseball 101, folks.

[noumpere]

Something is missing here.

If that tag was applied before the batter/runner touched first, anyone in the right mind denies the run.

Now, if you somehow had umpire that didn't have a complete grasp of their senses, and allowed the run, I'm sure the manager, knowing his job, lodged a proper protest, and was able to take that run off the board.

So what really happened here?

Oh please. Way too many umpires fans coaches and players think that a force play means tagging the base and that tagging the runner is not a force play so the run can score. You know its wrong and I know its wrong but it doesnt surprise me that somewhere oin the tens of thousands of games played each week that someone let this run score.

[mjr_2013]

The batter runner was forced to 1st. I don't care if it takes 20 minutes to get him out, as long as he doesn't reach first before he is out, no one scores.

What you are thinking of is a situation with R2 and R3... Ball is hit to the shortstop, who runs down the R2, and applies the tag after R3 has crossed... In that situation, R3's run counts because R2 was not forced.

The end.

[kylejt]

The batter runner was forced to 1st. I don't care if it takes 20 minutes to get him out, as long as he doesn't reach first before he is out, no one scores.

What you are thinking of is a situation with R2 and R3... Ball is hit to the shortstop, who runs down the R2, and applies the tag after R3 has crossed... In that situation, R3's run counts because R2 was not forced.

The end.

It's not, technically, a force play at first.

(I'll step back at bit, and let some heads explode over that one)

[johnnyg08]

It's not, technically, a force play at first.

(I'll step back at bit, and let some heads explode over that one)

I was waiting for somebody to post that. Thanks Kyle!

:fuel:

[mstaylor]

It is definitely a very popular myth with untrained umpires and many coaches. I don't understand why because the rule is very explicit but many, many coaches believe that a tag on a force isn't a force. A fair amount of youth umpires do too. That shows how few read the rulebook. I know I was in that book when I started in youth ball, never saw a rulebook for way too many years.

Fortunately there are clinics available at local and regional levels to help umpires along, as well as boards like this.

[noumpere]

The batter runner was forced to 1st. I don't care if it takes 20 minutes to get him out, as long as he doesn't reach first before he is out, no one scores.

What you are thinking of is a situation with R2 and R3... Ball is hit to the shortstop, who runs down the R2, and applies the tag after R3 has crossed... In that situation, R3's run counts because R2 was not forced.

The end.

It's not, technically, a force play at first.

(I'll step back at bit, and let some heads explode over that one)

Of course not but it doesn't really matter in this play (nor has it ever mattered in my experience but I do recall reading one theoretical case where it could matter) and since this is the noobie section of the board I thought it best not to bring it up.