Umpiring is business

[PeteBooth]

Hi all:

The recent thread on a botched EJ situation prompted me for this post.

Officiating at one's local LL, Youth/Rec ball leagues and umpiring HS Varsity is COMPLETELY different. That's why IMO the recent thread on a bocthed EJ went on for pages or to paraphrase Warren's post "ran it's coarse"

As I stated in one of my responses you can post a thread anywhere BUT there is a separate Forum for Youth Rec league ball and IMO that's where that thread belonged. After all that's why that specific Forum was created in the first place.

When umpiring at one's local LL or Youth/Rec league the umpire has a different roll and more often then not is treated as part of "the family". Also, the game is officiated differently especially the game management aspect.

I "did my time" in LL and still do on occasion most notably during All Star Time. IMO, it's up to the next group of parents to donate their time.

Umpiring for me is a business. No different then being a plumber etc. When you hire a plumber I doubt you are going to bring out a plumber's manual and tell him that he is installing your boiler incorrectly and that he should do such and such. You can but chances are he will bill you for the time he has spent and then tell you - ok install the boiler yourself.

That's similar to a coach bringing a rule book onto the field. Contrary to what some may think, the coach does not get tossed for bringing a rule book onto the field. He gets tossed for unsportsmanlike behavior which is supported in the rules.

Here is my responsibility

1. Show up on Time

2. Dress appropriately (meaning wearing the apparel which is supported by the association in which I work)

3. Arrive at the field at least 15 minutes prior to the actual start time to: (1) inspect the field for possible ground rule dilema's: (2) Check "bats / hats" (3) conduct the pre-Game

4. For summer ball we get paid at the plate. For the HS season we get paid monthly by the assignor.

I am NOT there to teach, conduct a rules clinic etc. I am there for ONE reason and ONE reason only.

To make certain no team gains an unfair advantage over another not intended by the rules. That's it.

If a coach has a question about a ruling on the field we answer. If he doesn't like it lodge a protest. I am not going to allow a coach to come out with the rule book, read the rule in question and then have a discussion about it. That takes up way too much time and even though baseball is not a timed sport I am not going to be there all game long and get into a p*****g match with the coach over a rule interp.

There's a procedure in place and that's what should be followed.

IMO, the aforementioned was the reason the botched EJ thread took on a "different flavor"

It boils down to this philosophy.

Umpiring at the Select Travel ball level, College, HS, Legion is a business whereas umpiring at one's local LL or Rec league is NOT and that's a BIG difference.

Pete Booth

[semper_fi_72]

Pete

I disagree that umpiring at LL or Rec Ball is not business.

I do Select Travel Ball, LL, PONY,High School and Adult Rec Ball.

I may not be doing High School anymore. See a separate post I just finished.

If LL and Adult Rec Ball is not business then I wouldn't have gotten the opportunities I have and would not have made the amount of money I did this year.

The part you say is business made up probably less than 20% of the games I worked and made money on.

I consider myself a professional umpire working armature baseball.

If I am getting paid for the game it is all business, regardless of what level of ball it is.

[moblue]

I agree with semper fi. Umpiring ballgames at the lower levels is just as much a business as the upper levels. It is true that the manner in which you act should and will change as you move up in level, but that does not mean that the lower levels are not business. The lower levels are simply a different kind of business. By that I mean you conduct yourself differently. In a Cal Ripken game, there are appropriate situations to talk to certain spectators (i.e. the mom behind the backstop who asks a legitimate question between innings.). The reason? Most of us live where we work. If we didn't answer the question, we are not seen as "professional" but instead "arrogant." So by answering the question you are still performing business, just in a different manner. This is a far cry from what you would do in upper levels, because then you are not conducting yourself in a professional manner.

Disclaimer: I am not advocating talking to or engaging the spectators. I am only saying there are times when you have to otherwise it reflects poorly rather than positively on you.

[PeteBooth]

Pete

I disagree that umpiring at LL or Rec Ball is not business.

I do Select Travel Ball, LL, PONY,High School and Adult Rec Ball.

I may not be doing High School anymore. See a separate post I just finished.

If LL and Adult Rec Ball is not business then I wouldn't have gotten the opportunities I have and would not have made the amount of money I did this year.

Since you made money doing LL etc. you equate that to umpiring as a business and I disagree.

This is a quote from Rich Ives response in the other thread.

Countretpoints - mostly applicable in youth ball where both coaches and umpires are probably not as experienced.:

Refusing to consult the book can make the umpire look (pick one or more)

pigheaded, arrogant, cocky in the eyes of the coaches and fans. Take a couple of minutes and look it up. You're probably right, but at least you've made an effort. If you're on the league staff and not from outside you'll really benefit reputation-wise.

Forcing a protest and a return-some-other-time can be disruptive to team and park schedules. Sometimes it can be solved on the spot. Being able to show a coach in the book that a base award is two bases from the runner's position at the time and not "one-plus-one" saves time for everyone. Being able to show an umpire that an IFF doesn't have to come down within the infield saves time and a reschedule. So take the time - even if you have a hot date after the game.

The aforementioned statement is my MAIN point about umpiring being a business as opposed to umpiring at the youth / rec ball level.

Park Schedules etc. are NOT my concern when I umpire a HS or Legion game as that is NONE of my business. I show up where my assignor tells me the game is at. If there is a scheduling / park problem when my partner and I arrive and for whatever reason the game is cancelled (through no fault of ours or the assignor) we get a FULL game FEE.

When you do LL or Rec ball can you say the same? In other words if you are scheduled to do a LL game and show up and for whatever reason there is no game do you still get paid?

In our association for a FULL weekend of games, the teams have 72 hours in which to cancel out games, change the times of games or field/location changes.

if the weather is bad, they have 2.5 hours in which to contact the assignor so that the assignor has enough time to contact the officials who are umpiring the game. We have a 1.5 hour lead time for travel.

if they do not abide by the above we still GET paid.

if we do the game SOLO it's a Fee plus 1/2

That's what I mean by umpiring being a business. Just because you get paid to do LL games doesn't necessarily mean it's a business as in the examples I gave.

If you umpire a LL game SOLO I doubt you are getting paid a FEE plus 1/2. Also, is the Fee you get from LL or other youth ball a market rate Fee? At least from my experiences the Fee for LL or youth/rec ball leagues is below market rates by some $20.00 or more.

In a nutshell just because you get paid doesn't necessarily mean it's a business and that is my point.

Pete Booth

Edited December 10, 2010 by PeteBooth

[Mr Umpire]

Since you made money doing LL etc. you equate that to umpiring as a business and I disagree.

This is a quote from Rich Ives response in the other thread.

The aforementioned statement is my MAIN point about umpiring being a business as opposed to umpiring at the youth / rec ball level.

Park Schedules etc. are NOT my concern when I umpire a HS or Legion game as that is NONE of my business. I show up where my assignor tells me the game is at. If there is a scheduling / park problem when my partner and I arrive and for whatever reason the game is cancelled (through no fault of ours or the assignor) we get a FULL game FEE.

When you do LL or Rec ball can you say the same? In other words if you are scheduled to do a LL game and show up and for whatever reason there is no game do you still get paid?

In our association for a FULL weekend of games, the teams have 72 hours in which to cancel out games, change the times of games or field/location changes.

if the weather is bad, they have 2.5 hours in which to contact the assignor so that the assignor has enough time to contact the officials who are umpiring the game. We have a 1.5 hour lead time for travel.

if they do not abide by the above we still GET paid.

if we do the game SOLO it's a Fee plus 1/2

That's what I mean by umpiring being a business. Just because you get paid to do LL games doesn't necessarily mean it's a business as in the examples I gave.

If you umpire a LL game SOLO I doubt you are getting paid a FEE plus 1/2. Also, is the Fee you get from LL or other youth ball a market rate Fee? At least from my experiences the Fee for LL or youth/rec ball leagues is below market rates by some $20.00 or more.

In a nutshell just because you get paid doesn't necessarily mean it's a business and that is my point.

Pete Booth

How much and if you get paid is what means "Umpiring is a business" or not? That is all how the contract or agreement is designed.

Economic system in which goods and services are exchanged for one another or money, on the basis of their perceived worth. Every business requires some form of investment and a sufficient number of customers to whom its output can be sold at profit on a consistent basis.

By this definition, all of umpiring is a business. How one gets compensated depends on the contract or agreement. Not everything revolves around money in umpiring or "business".

[semper_fi_72]

Since you made money doing LL etc. you equate that to umpiring as a business and I disagree.

This is a quote from Rich Ives response in the other thread.

The aforementioned statement is my MAIN point about umpiring being a business as opposed to umpiring at the youth / rec ball level.

Park Schedules etc. are NOT my concern when I umpire a HS or Legion game as that is NONE of my business. I show up where my assignor tells me the game is at. If there is a scheduling / park problem when my partner and I arrive and for whatever reason the game is cancelled (through no fault of ours or the assignor) we get a FULL game FEE.

When you do LL or Rec ball can you say the same? In other words if you are scheduled to do a LL game and show up and for whatever reason there is no game do you still get paid?

In our association for a FULL weekend of games, the teams have 72 hours in which to cancel out games, change the times of games or field/location changes.

if the weather is bad, they have 2.5 hours in which to contact the assignor so that the assignor has enough time to contact the officials who are umpiring the game. We have a 1.5 hour lead time for travel.

if they do not abide by the above we still GET paid.

if we do the game SOLO it's a Fee plus 1/2

That's what I mean by umpiring being a business. Just because you get paid to do LL games doesn't necessarily mean it's a business as in the examples I gave.

If you umpire a LL game SOLO I doubt you are getting paid a FEE plus 1/2. Also, is the Fee you get from LL or other youth ball a market rate Fee? At least from my experiences the Fee for LL or youth/rec ball leagues is below market rates by some $20.00 or more.

In a nutshell just because you get paid doesn't necessarily mean it's a business and that is my point.

Pete Booth

Yes, I get paid if I show up.

I do very few solo games, even at LL Minor level.

I do get the Market Rate to umpire those games for that level.

To compare what is paid from one level to the other is Apples and Oranges.

I make just as much working a Adult Rec Ball game as I do a High School game.

I wonder if I can use your "In a nutshell" point with the IRS or State to not pay taxes on the money I made.

If the fee paid for the game worked was not acceptable to me, I would not take the game.

I have been well taken care of by certain organizations I work games for to include being paid a bonus at the end of a season.

I guess I am just happy umpiring the levels, organizations and leagues I am and obviously they are very happy with me. Otherwise I would not have 302 games for 2010 after this weekend.

You have your business and I have my business.

I am very happy with the success of my business.

[mstaylor]

I work many levels of baseball. When I work 60ft baseball I do not charge. I take it no less serious than when I help host the Eastern Regional semi-pro tournament. I wear exactly the same gear and uniform, show up 60 minutes before the game and have a pregame with my partner. Now the problems or odd plays are going to be different in a 11/12 game than in a D1 college game. My expectations of a LL coach are far different from a HS or college coach that get paid to do his job. I will require either not to cross certain lines and make sure it happens. If I work a 90ft LL game, pony or other youth group and get paid the fee will be less than HS or other levels. It makes it no less important just not as lucrative. Trying to compare isn't fair, it's like comparing HS to D1 conference pay.

Now there is a percentage of LLs that use untrained parents out of the stands. The whole rulebook/ no rulebook discussion is moot in this type of league, neither side will know enough to find many of the rulings quickly anyway. There are trained volunteer umpires that certainly will but in the other type of league they just fly by the seat of their pants.

While I agree staright LL questions, MPR, LL certified bats, 7.13 violations and other LL specific questions belong in the youth section. IFF, batting out of order or other straight questions, whether they happen in an 11/12 game or MLB game, they belong in the open section.

[kylejt]

"Baseball is a game........"

Everyone comes to the park for different reasons.

Pete hates LL, for reasons only he knows. That's okay, as it's not everyone's cup of tea. Me, I don't like HS ball.

You'll find guys who take these games far too seriously at all levels. It's usually because what they do for a day job is a bit boring.

I do all sorts of levels of baseball. I don't consider any of it a business, no matter if my paycheck is $80 at the plate, a check in the mail, or a death rocket at the snack bar. If you do, that's cool. Again, everybody comes to the park for different reasons.

The only patent leather I own are my tuxedo shoes. (this is about as random as the OP)

[kcfan102]

What's the difference between doing youth and Legion?

Besides the quality of ball and the obvious differences (strike zones, balk warnings... etc)

[boyinr]

Pete:

"Umpiring for me is a business. No different then being a plumber etc. When you hire a plumber I doubt you are going to bring out a plumber's manual and tell him that he is installing your boiler incorrectly and that he should do such and such. You can but chances are he will bill you for the time he has spent and then tell you - ok install the boiler yourself.

That's similar to a coach bringing a rule book onto the field. Contrary to what some may think, the coach does not get tossed for bringing a rule book onto the field. He gets tossed for unsportsmanlike behavior which is supported in the rules."

I completely disagree with your analogy. In my professional life part of my responsabilty to hold the consultants that I hire (and pay) to following the "rule book". This is not sport or fun and games. If your plumber installs your boiler incorrectly people can and have died. If in fact he is wrong, he is more than violating an "unwritten rule of behavior" I am not sure how you make the leap that the mere presence of a rule book is unsportmanlike behavior. I challange you to quote from some manual, casebook, interpretation, etc.....

I been involved in a game when a coach brought his rule book out to ask a question about a base award. I asked him politely to put it away and I would explain it to him. He was a rookie HS Frosh coach (but an experianced player). I also used this as a teaching moment about the rule book "manners".

I was also once restricted to the bench myself by an umpire when I confronted him about a ruling he had made. He told me to go back to the dugout and to not come back with out my rule book citing the exact rule I asking about. When I did what he instructed me to he used that as the ammo to restrict me to the bench. I was a little to "green" to realize that I was being setup by someone who was not following the rulebook but also arrogant. He was wrong about the rule and its enforcement. He chose to insert his own judgement in place of the rule. BTW at the level we were playing there was no option to be "restricted to bench" either.

A better analogy is this.....If a student answers an exam question correctly but the teacher marks it wrong on the exam should the the teacher should automatically give the student a failing grade for committing academic unsportsmanlike conduct?

"It is a long way to the ground when you ride a high horse"

Edited December 11, 2010 by boyinr

[mstaylor]

I was also once restricted to the bench myself by an umpire when I confronted him about a ruling he had made. He told me to go back to the dugout and to not come back with out my rule book citing the exact rule I asking about. When I did what he instructed me to de he used that as ammo to me to the bench. I was a little to "green" to realize that I was being setup by someone who was not only not following the rulebook but also arrogant. He was wrong about the rule and its enforcement. He chose to insert his own judgement in place of the rule. BTW at the level we were playing there was no option to be "restricted to bench" either.

A prime example of an umpire that has no business on the field. I have overturned extra day suspendions because the umpire baited the player/coach into saying or doing something that gets him tossed.

Back to the OP.

I'm not sure why we are having this discussion. Pete simply said, in the other thread, that he thought LL based questions belonged in the LL section. It is his opinion and right to state. I agree that the LL specific should, more general questions can go either place. It is well known that Pete has a bias against LL and a preference yoward Fed. Again I don't have a problem with that unless that bias makes unable to answer questions, which I am not saying happened. Rich on the other hand has a preference toward LL, also fine as long as it doesn't cause him problems answering, again not an accusation. There are others that prefer travel ball, MiLB or college. No problem there either. I personally started in LL and hold a soft spot for it. I am an interpreter in HS so I am well versed in that level. I used to do the same for my college group but I left them so my NCAA knowledge is less but I still feel comfortable discussing it. I have spent many years working adult ball, AL and travel.

I don't think any one is better or worse than the other, different without a doubt. Each level has it's good points and bad points. The speed and level of play differs level to level, the knowledge of participants is certainly different. All that said, I still use the same work ethic on each level, same uniform, same gear, same desire to do the best I can. If I work a LL or Pony game for fifty dollars and a HS game for seventy dollars, is that so different from seventy for HS and one hundred and sixty for college? There is a huge difference between levels in pay, I don't see that as a defining difference. I get fifty for both LL 90ft and HS JV, where's the difference there?

[mazzamouth]

What's the difference between doing youth and Legion?

Besides the quality of ball and the obvious differences (strike zones, balk warnings... etc)

what in the heck is a "Balk warning"?

[widac]

what in the heck is a "Balk warning"?

It's when an ump starts to warn a coach or player about something and then stops, and then starts again :cheers:

[kcfan102]

what in the heck is a "Balk warning"?

For the younger kids, we don't penalize on the first balk, we give them a warning for the game. If they do it again, then we advance runners.

[MT_Blue]

Since you made money doing LL etc. you equate that to umpiring as a business and I disagree.

This is a quote from Rich Ives response in the other thread.

The aforementioned statement is my MAIN point about umpiring being a business as opposed to umpiring at the youth / rec ball level.

Park Schedules etc. are NOT my concern when I umpire a HS or Legion game as that is NONE of my business. I show up where my assignor tells me the game is at. If there is a scheduling / park problem when my partner and I arrive and for whatever reason the game is cancelled (through no fault of ours or the assignor) we get a FULL game FEE.

When you do LL or Rec ball can you say the same? In other words if you are scheduled to do a LL game and show up and for whatever reason there is no game do you still get paid?

In our association for a FULL weekend of games, the teams have 72 hours in which to cancel out games, change the times of games or field/location changes.

if the weather is bad, they have 2.5 hours in which to contact the assignor so that the assignor has enough time to contact the officials who are umpiring the game. We have a 1.5 hour lead time for travel.

if they do not abide by the above we still GET paid.

if we do the game SOLO it's a Fee plus 1/2

That's what I mean by umpiring being a business. Just because you get paid to do LL games doesn't necessarily mean it's a business as in the examples I gave.

If you umpire a LL game SOLO I doubt you are getting paid a FEE plus 1/2. Also, is the Fee you get from LL or other youth ball a market rate Fee? At least from my experiences the Fee for LL or youth/rec ball leagues is below market rates by some $20.00 or more.

In a nutshell just because you get paid doesn't necessarily mean it's a business and that is my point.

Pete Booth

Hey all,

I finally got a break from studying for finals to take a look at this thread.... and really umpiring as a whole (at least in my opinion) is a business regardless of level and involvement. whether your the assignor OR simply the official your part of a business thinking of the assignor as a direct supervisor and the official as an employee. As far as getting paid i dont feel like that is a gauge of whether its a business or not because being 'paid' is a subjective term, payment might be something physical like actual money or a check OR it can be simply the satisfaction of knowing you made a difference (yes YOU did no matter if you want to deny it or not) in a childs life by giving back to the game. I personally started with the later in mind considering the program i work for primarily gave me alot of enjoyment while i was in school, the money was only a perk.

Either way you look at it your involved in a business 'machine' to some degree and regardless of your definition of paid you ARE working for someone/thing hense its a business to what ever degree you want to make it to be......Anyway my 2 cents..

p.s. as usual sorry if its rambling and non sensical i always seem to find somethign of interest after i get done studying etc so my awnsers might not always be clear....

Ken

[mstaylor]

Balk warnings: my nemisis. It is the part of youth baseball that I depise, both as a manager and an umpire. It does nothing to teach anybody anything, which is the purpose according to coaches. Unless you are going to warn every different type of balk then what good is it? You warn for blowing through a stop, then balk him for stepping to first and not throwing.

By the way, I really liked widac's answer.

[mazzamouth]

For the younger kids, we don't penalize on the first balk, we give them a warning for the game. If they do it again, then we advance runners.

gotta ya...LOL

I have only umpires 2 LL games in my career..LOL

[mazzamouth]

Is umpiring a business you ask? Well I think that lies solely up to the individual. My self I do not see it as a business. I love to umpire ( For the record I'm not saying that other do not). But I love being on the field, I go to clinic's where some guys would rather make money, I work DI scrimmages for free cause I'm trying to get in a group, and it is a 100 miles drive 1 way... but don't care, just love being there. I take pride in my uniforms, but new stuff when It isn't even close to need to be replaced, that might be the Military in me.

But for some people that need that money, heck I talk and hear and most people dont even read the rule book, yea yea you might know the rules, But when I can almost sight it word for word, how can I lose a argument when I tell him the ruling..LOL

Some people treat this different, but it doesn't make them better or worse.

Never Settle. Work Hard.

[kcfan102]

Balk warnings: my nemisis. It is the part of youth baseball that I depise, both as a manager and an umpire. It does nothing to teach anybody anything, which is the purpose according to coaches. Unless you are going to warn every different type of balk then what good is it? You warn for blowing through a stop, then balk him for stepping to first and not throwing.

By the way, I really liked widac's answer.

I agree completely. Everywhere I go that has these balk warnings, I always find myself in an argument with my inner umpire as to what do I let go (twitches and such) and what do I call?

I hate it too.

[mstaylor]

Because they aren't being taught they will do something obvious early. I bang it and get the warning out of the way then you can carry on like it should be. I had a pitcher that just flat wouldn't listen to me so I told the umpires to nail him on everything.

Edited December 13, 2010 by mstaylor

[mrumpiresir]

I have been doing HS and Legion ball almost exclusively. Every once in a while I help out with a LL or other youth game. To say there is no difference in the way the games are conducted is crazy. Youth games are more a teaching than competitive contest when compared to Varsity game and my attitude changes as it should. At the youth level, coaches, fans and players are less knowledgeable and often I take the time to educate people on the rules and why a call was made the way it was. Never happens in a varsity or Legion game, and it shouldn't.

Just my two cents.

[kcfan102]

Whats with all of this teaching?

I didn't sign up for this teaching job.

[LMSANS]

Whats with all of this teaching?

I didn't sign up for this teaching job.

Then don't.:wave:

[kylejt]

I fully understand those that feel umpires shouldn't be teaching anything, at any level, at the ballpark. That's probably a good thing for them.

I've seen plenty of guys try, and fail miserably, to teach rules, procedures, and conduct on the diamond. It's a skill, or an art. But it's not for everyone.

So if you feel you shouldn't be teaching out there, that's great. You probably wouldn't be any good at it.

But there is a time and place for it, if you're up to it.

[mstaylor]

I completely agree that there is an element of teaching in anything below varsity, including JV. I don't have a problem explaining why something was a balk or why there is interference without contact, or a variety of other things that can happen. If I can't do it quickly at the time, I will take time between innings. Bad behavior that results in an ejection is a different type of teaching. This is showing them what is allowed and what is not.