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By dumbdumb
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Paperipper17

Paperipper17

Posted
Posted

I loved Weber's book. But as a guy who went through pro school, and followed the pro guys around, hearing their stories and opinions, he should know that what he's advocating won't work. "Subtle adjustments" may help solve the dilemma of a certain call, but in doing so will cause its own problem by eliminating the ability to see the call you were in position for in the first place. By the time you're good enough to enter pro ball, you've seen the play he uses as an example-the swipe tag at first-a hundred times. Big league guys have seen it closer to a thousand, I'm sure. No amount of "practice" is going to make it any easier to position yourself for that call. There isn't much of a point in finding a better position for that call, because it'll probably be a worse position for making the safe/out on the force, which is what will happen 95% of the time.

That being said, I agree with a few elements of his article. +1 on MLB taking an active recruiting and training role, and also to increasing compensation so more of our talented umpires will want to give pro ball a chance. Not by any means saying I'm good enough to do it, but why would someone in my position turn down or leave a better-paying and secure job to scrape on the road for 10 years for a minuscule chance of being a big-league umpire?

:2cents:

mazzamouth

mazzamouth

Posted
Posted

I loved Weber's book. But as a guy who went through pro school, and followed the pro guys around, hearing their stories and opinions, he should know that what he's advocating won't work. "Subtle adjustments" may help solve the dilemma of a certain call, but in doing so will cause its own problem by eliminating the ability to see the call you were in position for in the first place. By the time you're good enough to enter pro ball, you've seen the play he uses as an example-the swipe tag at first-a hundred times. Big league guys have seen it closer to a thousand, I'm sure. No amount of "practice" is going to make it any easier to position yourself for that call. There isn't much of a point in finding a better position for that call, because it'll probably be a worse position for making the safe/out on the force, which is what will happen 95% of the time.

That being said, I agree with a few elements of his article. +1 on MLB taking an active recruiting and training role, and also to increasing compensation so more of our talented umpires will want to give pro ball a chance. Not by any means saying I'm good enough to do it, but why would someone in my position turn down or leave a better-paying and secure job to scrape on the road for 10 years for a minuscule chance of being a big-league umpire?

:2cents:

I know a few MiLB guys and that is one of there problems, money.. heck I can work a DI game at Tulane this upcoming year and get a little over $300.. a AAA will get around 125...there is a problem..LOL those guys need more money they work hard and deserve it.

Umpire in Chief

Umpire in Chief

Posted
Posted

The money in the minors is definately an issue. Good guys who may otherwise have their service continue drop because they can't make a living.

This is the second or third time I've heard of MiLB making their own school, but I've seen no official word.

But I will say I'm a fan of training and development no matter what level people are at. You may not learn anything "new" but you may learn a new perspective a new thought process and the exposure definately doesn't hurt either.

dumbdumb

dumbdumb

Posted
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Posted (edited)

That being said, I agree with a few elements of his article. +1 on MLB taking an active recruiting and training role, and also to increasing compensation so more of our talented umpires will want to give pro ball a chance. Not by any means saying I'm good enough to do it, but why would someone in my position turn down or leave a better-paying and secure job to scrape on the road for 10 years for a minuscule chance of being a big-league umpire?

:shrug:

I know a few MiLB guys and that is one of there problems, money.. heck I can work a DI game at Tulane this upcoming year and get a little over $300.. a AAA will get around 125...there is a problem..LOL those guys need more money they work hard and deserve it.

First, I am in no way busting on anyone. That said, IMHO all baseball umpires are highly underpaid at the Division 1 level and in MiLB and I do not want to hear the non-revenue sport argument for the amateurs.

IMHO, in the first quote and the second quote, at the amateur level, we may not be getting the best amateur umpires either, when the D1 guys can make 1,600 to 2,000 plus expenses at the major Conferences for a basketball game and baseball only pays 300-350. That is not even 25% what those guys make. Until the pay scale is on equal footing or much, much closer, we have the same disparities of why should I do baseball at 300-350 when I could get 5 and 6 times that much for basketball. I would imagine football at the major conferences are much closer to the basketball guys than the baseball guys and we could be losing good candidates to that sport also.

Also, how many guys in basketball have to worry about a concussions every time they work the plate, as well as broken hands, arms, and fingers and contusions in the legs that may become life threatening. They do not have those 4 hour games in the heat to deal with either. And of course they get 3 officials per game just like the D1 conferences in baseball.

Now, to the old non-rev argument, I will give in enough to go along, reluctantly, with baseball making 75% of the D1 guys. That would be 1200 to 1500 per game. I would imagine that is (75%) on par of any discrepancy at the High School level with the major sports (no offense meant to many other sports), of baseball, basketball, football. And think of that paltry amount (either 3600 or 3900, can't quite remember) for doing up to 12 games in the CWS with all that money they throw at Omaha with ESPN etc. That is just pathetic. D1 basketball just got 2k grand for their championship game. OK, these D1 work more than one game at Omaha. OK, fly in a new crew for each game then if you want to say the basketball guys only get 1 game in the finals.

Now for pro ball, I think they should get a minimum 100 per level. Personally, I would give rookie ball 150 per game to make up somewhat for the shortened game schedule that first year. The next year, they would go to low A at 125 per game for a 140 game schedule, and 150 the next year in high A(of course this would still not be what the D1 guys are making right now per game, much less the 75% that I think D1 should make in comparison to D1 basketball at the amateur level). I also think you should get 1 year at each level or you are dismissed, which means you are in AAA, starting your 5th year. They should of course get "free travel, room and 75 per diem" like the D1 basketball guys get also.

Just MHO that there is a possibility we "may" not be getting the best at all levels due to the financial end of it -- amateur, MiLB, MLB when it comes to baseball.

http://webcache.goog...lient=firefox-a

College basketball referee at the top of his game

Because Welmer goes straight from one city to the next, he can collect extra money from the airfare and ends up making more than the per game fee.

Edited by dumbdumb
Umpire in Chief

Umpire in Chief

Posted
Posted

Another good post dumbdumb,

I think the pay hurts more at the MiLB level than at the amateur level mainly because D-I umpires generally have a full time job to make them comfortable. MiLB guys don't have that benefit. Their travel schedule just dooesn't allow it. Some of these guys can only barely make it in the off season as substitute teachers, working at UPS, instructors, etc.

The minor league pay scale needs to make a drastic shift up. These guys aren't monks who have sworn a vow of poverty.

As an HR person I'll tell you that the better a job pays the higher quality people you have who are interested. Prime example Chic-fil-A vs McDonalds. Which gives you better service? Which treats their employees better?

Hell, if it paid enough I'd make a try at it. I'd probably be back home after 5 weeks at Wendelstedt's, but I'd try.

mazzamouth

mazzamouth

Posted
Posted

dumbdumb... I can tell you, I have a buddy that is a DI basketball guy.. he gets around 2800 for every basketball game, no he has to pay for his travel and lodging out of that money. So Imagine how much more they get for playoff's.. Last year alone he made over 100k just doing basketball. not saying that it is far, but basketball brings in about 400% more money that baseball does. MiLB is the same, they are not getting the same amount of fans as the crazy Yankee fans..LOL

I do agree us College guys could get more, Heck even my basketball buddy says the same thing.

JaxRolo

JaxRolo

Posted
Posted

dumbdumb... I can tell you, I have a buddy that is a DI basketball guy.. he gets around 2800 for every basketball game, no he has to pay for his travel and lodging out of that money. So Imagine how much more they get for playoff's.. Last year alone he made over 100k just doing basketball. not saying that it is far, but basketball brings in about 400% more money that baseball does. MiLB is the same, they are not getting the same amount of fans as the crazy Yankee fans..LOL

I do agree us College guys could get more, Heck even my basketball buddy says the same thing.

OK so when is the next Basketball REF Camp!!!

mazzamouth

mazzamouth

Posted
Posted

Wait, wait...we're talking USD here?!!?! $2,500+ PER GAME?! Hell I'd gladly pay for expenses with that type of game fee!!!

I'm not kidding.. he works in the BXII, OVC, and CUSA..and some others..

when he found out I do College baseball, right away he said "man you guys get screwed" college baseball umpires are so underpaid.

dumbdumb

dumbdumb

Posted
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Posted (edited)

And like I said, just like some statements that raise the question that MLB may not be getting the best of the best because of low pay and duration of the minor league apprenticeship, D1 amateur baseball may not be getting the best of the best because of the low pay structure, high possibility of injury on the plate, especially concussions and broken limbs and contusions from foul balls, and the working conditions due to weather, not to mention the equipment expense just to get started and maintain year after year.

mazz-Just to let you know I ain't too far out in left field (well maybe) on the subject, but rumor(remember I said rumor, so it may not be true-go check your buddy as maybe it is one of those joking rumors) has it there is a select group of officials that command 3-3.5k per game and yes they pay all expenses out of this amount. Now the Big Ten has been the most tight lipped about their fee structure for years going back to some articles with Gene Calhoun if I remember right. However, it is acknowledge they are the highest paying Conference or were at one time. Also, the officials are paid to fly round trip from home to the game and back home, and then from home to the next game and back home, but they can pocket more money by not going back home and fly right to the next site or even renting a car and driving if they so chose. Of course they must pay taxes on this extra travel money they pocket, which is not actually used for the plane fair home and back. Maybe they have stopped this practice, but for years that's how it was.

Let's also remember that many of these officials are HCE's (highly compensated employees) or owner's of their own companies to start with. Why do you think Mr. Hightower turned down the NBA years ago when they went to a 3 man. He was already making over 100k as a principle or superintendent (and pension), plus he was making 75-100k at the D1 level even back then. The NBA starting pay was only 65-75k back then so he would have taken a massive pay cut. He also owns his own plane and pilot's license and flies himself to his games

Here are the guys who all called 90 games or more in 2009-2010--David Hall (106), Bryan Kersey(probably former NBA Jess Kersey's kid) & Mike Kitts(97), Rick Hartzell & Mark Whitehead (95), John Higgins(94), Jamie Luckie & Karl Hess (93), Ted Valentine, Les Jones, Ed Corbett, Kelly Self (91), Tom O'Neill (90). If they make at least as much as your buddy and I think a couple are in that select group that I mentioned, we are talking some 250k and above W2's. There is also an article about that Welmer guy who worked 115 games one year before he broke his foot the next year and was out, and then last year it seems like he had worked 49 games in 50 days before he got injured again. John Clougherty's son Tim worked 64 games last year.

Also, before Hank Nichols left, some of the officials starting talking to him about higher fees for the NCAA tournament. It is very prestigious to work, but the pay was lower than the regular season. For the 2008-2009 season the fee was 750 first and 2nd round, 1000 sweet 16 and quarters, and 1400 for semi's and finals. They also received free travel, room and 75 per diem. For the 2009-2010 season the fee went to 1000 for round of 64 and 32, 1400 for sweet 16 and quarters, and 2000 for semi's and finals in addition to free flight, room and 75 per diem. I believe they are working on a higher per diem also. Imagine, a 600 dollar raise from 1400 to 2000 and umpires only get 300-350 per game and about the same for the CWS if it goes the full amount of games. Maybe a little more if somebody sweeps.

Alas, umpires work for the love of the game but it ain't right or fair (or is that foul).

Edited by dumbdumb
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