First Protested Game

[moblue]

I was going to post this in the "War Stories" forum, but thought it would be better off here.

I'm not exactly sure how I've managed to avoid it, but I have never had a game formally protested before. Tonight was the first it's ever happened to me. It was the Cal Ripken 11U District Tournament (modified OBR), winner goes to the championship game immediately following this one. The loser goes home.

With R1 and a new batter in (I think) the fourth inning, R1 steals second. The ball beats him by a mile, but he's too far to go back. So he steps to the side and jumps up over the tag. He's safe there, but then overruns second. His coach yells for him to get back on the bag and the fielder runs in to get him. I called him safe, much to the displeasure of the defense.

The head DC requests time and comes out on the field after it's granted. "Aren't you going to call him out for not sliding?" I told him I was not, because there was no slide rule. He insisted that there was a slide rule in that league. I told him the local league rules no longer applied. The only rule was the malicious contact rule. About this time my partner comes up and gets involved in the situation. I wasn't too happy about that because it was not his call. Anyways the coach does at one point make the statement "This is bull!" I wanted to toss this guy but the comment didn't seem worth it. I was hoping he would finish out his word (bull****), but he never did. He finally decides to protest.

In Cal Ripken tournament play there is a requirement that a protest committee of at least three people be appointed by the commissioner and be present at all tournament games. Guess what happened when I asked the site director (not the TD, just someone that was more or less his liason) if he knew of a protest committee? He didn't know anything about it. So while I'm trying to go through with the protest the proper way, my partner is on the phone trying to get the district commish. He has also told the DC that he has 10 minutes to show him where in the rule book the slide rule was. When I found out there was no protest committee, I told the site director it would be me, him, and my partner. He was okay with that and we made our decision. We knew we were right and had even found the malicious contact rule in the book to back us up. In the meantime, we get the TD on the phone, who backs us up. I believe the district commish may have also been spoken with and he said we were right. By this point it was un-freaking-believable how much my partner and everyone else was turning a protest into a three-ringed circus. We go back and give the DC our decision and he wasn't happy.

He started asking me if I felt that a cleat at the height of a player's face was dangerous, and would that not be malicious contact if the cleat hit a player in the face? I told him again that there was no slide rule and I had no contact, so the malicious contact rule wasn't in play. The AC is over on the sidelines chirping, and my partner, the senior official, didn't stop it. I almost did but felt that it wasn't my job. I missed my EJ opportunity when the head DC said "If one of my kids gets hurt..." and he let his sentence trail off. I took that as a threat of a lawsuit (which would never stand up in court since we were calling by the book). That was my coulda-shoulda-woulda moment that I would love to have back.

He and his AC continued throughout the game to be jerks, complaining that they were not going to get another call to go their way and how my partner's strike zone was erratic. The final out of the game was a banger at first that went against their team. The coach, true to his form, told the player it was okay because they wouldn't have gotten the call anyway, and he was safe by a foot.

Looking back now I see several missed opportunities for warnings and EJs. The problem is we had already had an issue on Thursday night, and I was hoping to not have another big deal in this tournament. I knew the UIC would have my back no matter what since we were right, but was waiting on my partner to pull the trigger since he had brought himself in and had seniority.

Looking at this circus, what could/should I have done differently?

[yawetag]

When I found out there was no protest committee, I told the site director it would be me, him, and my partner. He was okay with that and we made our decision.

I would assume the protest committee is supposed to be three people independent of the game. By making yourself and your partner part of the ad hoc committee, you're putting two people in the mix that's already in the situation.

Let's suppose you instead have the OC and his assistant as the other two, along with the DC. Don't you think it would have gone the other way?

My only suggestion for next time would be to find three independent people -- even if it's umpires from another game.

[Rich Ives]

Oops - the umps in the game make the initial call - then it goes to the protest committee. It's like an appeals court - you need different judges.

[jnazz]

Oops - the umps in the game make the initial call - then it goes to the protest committee. It's like an appeals court - you need different judges.

Agreed. The way we do it in our local tournaments is to have each coach appoint one fan (preferably a "baseball knowledgable" fan) and either an off field umpire or someone with the tournament committe (if an umpire is not at the park). This way each team has a say in the decision.

[jnazz]

Now, as far as the jumping over the fielder goes (when a slide or avoid rule is in effect) what are others' opinions? In my opinion is that if he jumps and clears the fielder he has avoided contact. But if he jumps and makes contact he is out (since a cleat to the head can be dangerous). I'm interested in hearing the from the rest of you. I'm sure some call runners out for this act.

[LMSANS]

Now, as far as the jumping over the fielder goes (when a slide or avoid rule is in effect) what are others' opinions? In my opinion is that if he jumps and clears the fielder he has avoided contact. But if he jumps and makes contact he is out (since a cleat to the head can be dangerous). I'm interested in hearing the from the rest of you. I'm sure some call runners out for this act.

I may be wrong, but I believe ony NFHS has a jumping over rule. I'm not familiar with the specifics of CR, but I don't think OBR has anything. HTBT, but I don't have anything from the description.

[moblue]

I will agree with you on needing people independent of the game. However, this was the district level tournament (not to mention a rivalry game between the two towns), so using coaches or allowing them to appoint a fan was out of the question. We went with what we had. I was the only one that seemed to even have an idea of what to do in the event of a protest. What I'd like to know is how the situation could have been handled throughout to have maintained better control over the game. One of the first things that comes to mind is that I should have waved off my partner when he started to come over to the conversation.

[jjb]

As far as the protest commmitte is concerned, it's not your problem: it's the TD's problem (or site director, whatever that is) You made the call (or non-call). The coach disagrees, and is protesting. You politely point him in the direction of the TD, sit down and have a gatorade. Now, it moves onto other people, and you're out of the loop. You just provide information to the committee as to what you saw and ruled. Asking the same umpire who made the call to judge whether his own call stands is just silly (not you, the idea).

As far as the ruling, I'd need more information (the term "modified OBR" doesn't mean anything to me). If there's a "slide or seek to avoid contact", well, he avoided contact, didn't he? There's no MC, because, well, there's no "C". If there's a FED "no hurdle" rule, he may have something there. Otherwise, he's out of gas.

After a protest is adjudicated, that's it, and no further discussion should occur on the matter. Period, full stop. It's over. Any futher chirping should result in the classic "bang-zoom" mechanic we've all come to love....

[JaxRolo]

As far as the protest commmitte is concerned, it's not your problem: it's the TD's problem (or site director, whatever that is) You made the call (or non-call). The coach disagrees, and is protesting. You politely point him in the direction of the TD, sit down and have a gatorade. Now, it moves onto other people, and you're out of the loop. You just provide information to the committee as to what you saw and ruled. Asking the same umpire who made the call to judge whether his own call stands is just silly (not you, the idea).

+1 on this post.Its not the Umps problem. Just give info to the committee and wait for decision.

[Umpire in Chief]

I've only had 1 protested game it was a few years ago, an the fact that the team protested the call in the first place irritated me.

It was North Carolina VS Peurto Rico in on of the AAU National championship tourneys. NC hits a grand slam home run. The NC bench lines up on the 3rd base line and gives low 5s to the batter as he came around the 3rd base line.

PR coach went crazy and said they couldn't do that and the batter would be out and no runs score.

I told him it was legal, we went back and forth. Then when I told him it was time to play he said he was protesting the call.

In our situation protests were immediate and the tourny dir would make the final call.

My call was upheld, but it was irritating that he wanted to file a protest over that.

[spiritumpa]

tell your jerk partner to put the phone down and get the game going---if the protest is upheld(without you and your partner as part of the group)let them worry about it later. Also never let a jerk off the hook--if you would of ran him earlier he would not be there to bitch at the end.

[jjb]

I will agree with you on needing people independent of the game. However, this was the district level tournament (not to mention a rivalry game between the two towns), so using coaches or allowing them to appoint a fan was out of the question. We went with what we had. I was the only one that seemed to even have an idea of what to do in the event of a protest. What I'd like to know is how the situation could have been handled throughout to have maintained better control over the game. One of the first things that comes to mind is that I should have waved off my partner when he started to come over to the conversation.

I hear what you say, MO, but, at the time of the protest, you simply don't have any independent party to handle the protest, (except the Site Director). With all respect to your integrity, you made the call: you can't present yourself as an independent party. (Using a "fan" as independent is, IMHO, as silly as using the other coach.)

You've either got a no-hurdle rule or not (like I said, "modified OBR" doesn't mean anything to me). If it's there, show it to the Site Director. if it's not, let the Site Director read the rules and tell the protesting coach that it's not illegal. protest denied, play ball. Ignore the hypothetical nonsense, and let him rule on the facts.

I'd have no problem with talking to my partner one-on-one after the protest, to make sure I've got the ruling right. But I think your partner jumped the gun. I would have waved him off as well.

I'll grant you that maintaining control is difficult during protests. You'll have everybody on the field, in the dugouts and in the stands, all wanting to get in on the discussion, as well as shouting "opinions of the stupid kind". I've found that, when this happens, the more you maintain your composure, the quieter your demeanor, the more the pressure will decrease. We learned that at the State Police Academy: when they get loud, you get soft. Find the guys you need to be talking to, (Site Director, Head Coaches, pull them away from the irrelevant people, and put the issues together.

(oh, and, if he kicked him, now you have contact, and would rule on the "avoid contact" or the MC).

[moblue]

Here is how the rule reads in the Cal Ripken/Babe Ruth League rule book:

CONTACT RULE (ALL DIVISIONS) - If a runner attempting to reach home plate intentionally and maliciously runs into a defensive player in the area of home plate, he will be called out on the play and ejected from the game. The objective of this is to penalize the offensive team for deliberate, unwarranted, unsportsmanlike action by the runner for the obvious purpose of crashing the defensive player, rather than trying to reach home plate. Obviously, this is an umpire's judgement call.

The play in question was 1) at second base and 2) had no contact. The coach was being generally stupid and I wish I would have ran him. When the decision I made was upheld by the site director, TD, and district commish, I should have tossed him and his AC for furthering the dispute. They were still upset until they called their own league president, who told them we were right. I think the HC was slightly embarassed after that.

What caused problems here was the lack of a protest committee which, by rule, is supposed to be on hand before a tournament game is started. I have yet to see a protest committee at a single Babe Ruth League tournament game that I have umpired in. Should I have stayed out of it? Yes, but there are so few people around here who actually know the rules that I was afraid of my call being overturned. I am one of three area umpires that I am aware of that currently holds a certification to call Babe Ruth League games (Babe Ruth League, Inc. includes Cal Ripken and Jr. Babe). Most of the guys around here call Cal Ripken and Jr. Babe games by Fed rules. My partner tried to do the protest by Fed. rules until I told him that's not how protests work in Cal Ripken.

[buddywilshire]

Hey MoBlue was that game being played in Wildwood in St. Louis county? There was a big tourney going on at the loacal assocation, and I ran into one of the coaches at Mcdonalds and I thought he said it was Cal Ripken.

Just wondered.

[moblue]

No, this was a couple hours south of St. Louis. I'd love to call a few games in St. Louis sometime. I have a feeling things are easier for umpires up there.

[jjb]

Here is how the rule reads in the Cal Ripken/Babe Ruth League rule book:

The play in question was 1) at second base and 2) had no contact. The coach was being generally stupid and I wish I would have ran him. When the decision I made was upheld by the site director, TD, and district commish, I should have tossed him and his AC for furthering the dispute. They were still upset until they called their own league president, who told them we were right. I think the HC was slightly embarassed after that.

What caused problems here was the lack of a protest committee which, by rule, is supposed to be on hand before a tournament game is started. I have yet to see a protest committee at a single Babe Ruth League tournament game that I have umpired in. Should I have stayed out of it? Yes, but there are so few people around here who actually know the rules that I was afraid of my call being overturned. I am one of three area umpires that I am aware of that currently holds a certification to call Babe Ruth League games (Babe Ruth League, Inc. includes Cal Ripken and Jr. Babe). Most of the guys around here call Cal Ripken and Jr. Babe games by Fed rules. My partner tried to do the protest by Fed. rules until I told him that's not how protests work in Cal Ripken.

Of course the coach was still upset: if you talked to him today, he'd still tell you he was right: that' s what makes him a nitwit. The purpose of protests isn't to convince him you're right: it's to get back to the game. The great boxing referee Mills Lane always said "It's not final because I'm right: it's right because I'm final"

What happened was that the league tossed you under the bus by having an improper Protest Committee on hand during the game. I would handle that before your next game..

[Rich Ives]

Now, as far as the jumping over the fielder goes (when a slide or avoid rule is in effect) what are others' opinions? In my opinion is that if he jumps and clears the fielder he has avoided contact. But if he jumps and makes contact he is out (since a cleat to the head can be dangerous). I'm interested in hearing the from the rest of you. I'm sure some call runners out for this act.

NFHS/FED is the only group that bans hurdling. And even there you can hurdle a fielder who is lying on the ground.

"Slide or avoid" rules written by the sanctioning bodies all say "ATTEMPT" somewhere in their rule.

Contact rules include phrases like "deliberate" and "intent to injure" or "intent to dislodge the ball" - NONE of which are met by a hurdling runner.

SO - if you hurdle - legal - you have attepted - it can't be illegal contact so therefore ANY contact is legal.

[PeteBooth]

The head DC requests time and comes out on the field after it's granted. "Aren't you going to call him out for not sliding?" I told him I was not, because there was no slide rule. He insisted that there was a slide rule in that league. He finally decides to protest.

In Cal Ripken tournament play there is a requirement that a protest committee of at least three people be appointed by the commissioner and be present at all tournament games. Guess what happened when I asked the site director (not the TD, just someone that was more or less his liason) if he knew of a protest committee?

First and Foremost you need to KNOW the rules on a league you service. Also, any SPECECIAL rules for tournament play.

Some Cal Ripken Babe Ruth leagues even though OBR based do play by FED rules (FWIW I have umpired in such leagues).

Therefore, I do not know if this type tournament was using FED rules or not as you didn't mention it.

In any event absent MC, the play by the runner was legal. It's a judgement call and should not be protestable.

You made a ruling and the coach protested. The requirements

protest committee of at least three people be appointed by the commissioner and be present at all tournament games.

were not present.

You have 2 choices.

1. Accept the protest, note it and finish the game

OR

Let the TD sort things out.

I prefer number 1 because from your OP it doesn't appear that this particular tournament "had their act together" and I am NOT going to wait all day for a decision.

Pete Booth

[moblue]

CR Tournament rules are uniform throughout the nation. Local leagues are the only ones that have the option of creating special rules and by-laws. In this case, there was supposed to be a protest committee of at least three people present before the game even started. I have yet to ever see a protest committee present at a single tournament game. The rules also require the game be halted and the protest resolved immediately by the committee. We halted the game to resolve the protest, but had to create a committee. I had a feeling not having a protest committee would come back and bite someone one day. If I were the coach of the protesting team, I would have protested the lack of a protest committee (regardless of if I was right or wrong on my protest) after the protest was overruled/denied or whatever the correct term is.

[jjb]

CR Tournament rules are uniform throughout the nation. Local leagues are the only ones that have the option of creating special rules and by-laws. In this case, there was supposed to be a protest committee of at least three people present before the game even started. I have yet to ever see a protest committee present at a single tournament game. The rules also require the game be halted and the protest resolved immediately by the committee. We halted the game to resolve the protest, but had to create a committee. I had a feeling not having a protest committee would come back and bite someone one day. If I were the coach of the protesting team, I would have protested the lack of a protest committee (regardless of if I was right or wrong on my protest) after the protest was overruled/denied or whatever the correct term is.

Can't say I'd blame him if he did...

[buddywilshire]

No, this was a couple hours south of St. Louis. I'd love to call a few games in St. Louis sometime. I have a feeling things are easier for umpires up there.

I say the big bonus doing a legion, or high school level in a big area is I can go weeks or months not doing the same teams. We guys in our association that drive in from Cape and from ILL to do games. I was with a guy last weekend(granted it was rained out) and he was over 90 miles away. So come on up moblue, the more the merry.