Batter Kicks Bunted Ball

[ukce1861]

Had a situation last night that I've been stewing over all day. LLSB. 3 man crew, I'm U1. No runners. RH Batter bunts the ball. It settles on the ground, just in front of the plate. It appears to me to be out of the box, but I'm not 100% sure from my angle. The ball is stopped. As the batter comes out of the box, she kicks the ball. I wait for PU to make a call, but all he does is point fair. So I come up with, "That's interference - batter's out." After the play, the coach came out and said she was in the box. We conferenced and the PU and U3 both said they thought it was in the box, so I called "Foul Ball". Now my questions are myriad. You baseball guys, OBR references are fine, so don't weasel out on me.

1. 1). I know the batter is "protected" in the box, meaning a ball that hits the batter is a foul ball, not interference. But where is this spelled out in the rules? For some reason, I can't find it...
   
   
2. 2). What do you do in this situation? I was 100% sure that the batter kicked the ball. I wasn't 100% sure that the ball was out of the box, but I "called what I saw"... Since the kicked ball was the PU's call, I waited for him to make it, but once he pointed fair, I felt like I had to address the kicked ball with what I saw. Thoughts on how I handled this?
   
   
3. 3). After discussing this with another umpire today, he suggested it was interference whether the ball was in the box or not. His reasoning was, since the ball had stopped, this wasn't the same as a ball hitting the batter. This was now a runner kicking a fair ball. It kind of makes sense. It's like the ball hitting the bat versus the bat hitting the ball... Thoughts on that?
   

Thanks guys!

[TNCoach]

Had a situation last night that I've been stewing over all day. LLSB. 3 man crew, I'm U1. No runners. RH Batter bunts the ball. It settles on the ground, just in front of the plate. It appears to me to be out of the box, but I'm not 100% sure from my angle. The ball is stopped. As the batter comes out of the box, she kicks the ball. I wait for PU to make a call, but all he does is point fair. So I come up with, "That's interference - batter's out." After the play, the coach came out and said she was in the box. We conferenced and the PU and U3 both said they thought it was in the box, so I called "Foul Ball". Now my questions are myriad. You baseball guys, OBR references are fine, so don't weasel out on me.

1. 1). I know the batter is "protected" in the box, meaning a ball that hits the batter is a foul ball, not interference. But where is this spelled out in the rules? For some reason, I can't find it...
   
   
2. 2). What do you do in this situation? I was 100% sure that the batter kicked the ball. I wasn't 100% sure that the ball was out of the box, but I "called what I saw"... Since the kicked ball was the PU's call, I waited for him to make it, but once he pointed fair, I felt like I had to address the kicked ball with what I saw. Thoughts on how I handled this?
   
   
3. 3). After discussing this with another umpire today, he suggested it was interference whether the ball was in the box or not. His reasoning was, since the ball had stopped, this wasn't the same as a ball hitting the batter. This was now a runner kicking a fair ball. It kind of makes sense. It's like the ball hitting the bat versus the bat hitting the ball... Thoughts on that?
   

Thanks guys!

A call had to be made since she hit the ball. The ball would be dead (foul or out), so no problem there. I don't have a rule book with me, and I don't have one for LLSB, but the ball being stopped or moving, I would not see a difference in. If it was unintenional and in the box, I would think foul ball. Interested to see what others say.

[Astrosdawg07]

Being in the box is being in the box. Once its touched no matter how, its a dead ball. You said it best you called what you saw, that's what were asked to do. Sometimes we see things different from what really happened, we all kick calls. If you have the BR out of the box and there's contact with the ball boom we've got an out. If she was in the box then we've got a foul ball. You have three umpires out there get together and ask what everyone saw. Also on a play like that its not just the PU 's call, its who ever sees it calls it!

[Rich Ives]

Had a situation last night that I've been stewing over all day. LLSB. 3 man crew, I'm U1. No runners. RH Batter bunts the ball. It settles on the ground, just in front of the plate. It appears to me to be out of the box, but I'm not 100% sure from my angle. The ball is stopped. As the batter comes out of the box, she kicks the ball. I wait for PU to make a call, but all he does is point fair. So I come up with, "That's interference - batter's out." After the play, the coach came out and said she was in the box. We conferenced and the PU and U3 both said they thought it was in the box, so I called "Foul Ball". Now my questions are myriad. You baseball guys, OBR references are fine, so don't weasel out on me.

1. 1). I know the batter is "protected" in the box, meaning a ball that hits the batter is a foul ball, not interference. But where is this spelled out in the rules? For some reason, I can't find it...
   
   
2. 2). What do you do in this situation? I was 100% sure that the batter kicked the ball. I wasn't 100% sure that the ball was out of the box, but I "called what I saw"... Since the kicked ball was the PU's call, I waited for him to make it, but once he pointed fair, I felt like I had to address the kicked ball with what I saw. Thoughts on how I handled this?
   
   
3. 3). After discussing this with another umpire today, he suggested it was interference whether the ball was in the box or not. His reasoning was, since the ball had stopped, this wasn't the same as a ball hitting the batter. This was now a runner kicking a fair ball. It kind of makes sense. It's like the ball hitting the bat versus the bat hitting the ball... Thoughts on that?
   

Thanks guys!

It's not in the book. It's by custom/convention.

From "The Right Call" regarding the batter being hit by a batted ball:

“The Right Call” Casebook -- Comment: When this happens it is almost always as a batter leaves the batter’s box. Make sure the batter is out of the batter’s box when you call this, otherwise, call “foul ball”.

MLB just updated it's rules this year to clarify their take. LL may or may not choose to adopt the change some time in the future. The OBR rule now reads (changes in italics):

Rule 6.05: A batter is out when—

* * *

(g) His fair ball touches him before touching a fielder. <If the batter is in a legal position in the batter’s box, see Rule 6.03, and, in the umpire’s judgment, there was no intention to interfere with the course of the ball, a batted ball that strikes the batter or his bat shall be ruled a foul ball>;

Change to past practice:

1. Rule change: if a batted ball strikes the batter or

his bat while the batter is in his legal position:

foul ball.

2. If the batter has one foot outside the batter’s box,

batter is out for interference.

3. If the batter intentionally interferes he is out

regardless of his position in the batter’s box.

[yerout13]

I tend to agree with your friend, the PU signalled a fair ball and it stopped in fair territory, not in the box, or foul territory, therefore the batter had to be atleast in part out of the box in order to kick it, therefore the batter would be out... even if partially still in the batter's box, that foot is out, by rule, the batter should be out.... least that's how I'd rule it

Edited July 1, 2010 by yerout13
spelling

[TNCoach]

I tend to agree with your friend, the PU signalled a fair ball and it stopped in fair territory, not in the box, or foul territory, therefore the batter had to be atleast in part out of the box in order to kick it, therefore the batter would be out... even if partially still in the batter's box, that foot is out, by rule, the batter should be out.... least that's how I'd rule it

Is part of the box not in fair territory?

[yerout13]

the situation as described didn't indicate if it was stopped in the box, just that he signalled fair ball and that it appeared to be out of the box in front of the plate

[TNCoach]

What I got from him was he was in a position to see the ball stopped and the batter kick it. He could not tell where the ball was. In the conference it was decided the ball was in the box, but I may be misreading or misunderstanding.

[mstaylor]

First, in the OP yoou did well to try and let the PU take the call but in baseball we are taught to kill it immediately when seeing the ball hit the batter or visaversa. Now what I stress in clinics is to say,"TIME!" and only time. Whether the ball is foul or it is fair and an out can be determined by the PU.

Now here is the part that you won't find in the rulebook. If the ball hits the batter in the box then call it foul. The corner of the box is fair but for the sake of that rule consider all of it foul. If the ball is kicked then the fair part comes back into play. Either way it is the PU's call whether it is fair or foul.

[TNCoach]

He did say it was in the box, which I thought to mean ball though he may have meant the action was in the box, not necessarily the ball...

[yerout13]

What I got from him was he was in a position to see the ball stopped and the batter kick it. He could not tell where the ball was. In the conference it was decided the ball was in the box, but I may be misreading or misunderstanding.

I may have misunderstood as well, so my bad if I did, please accept my comments based on the ball not being in the box though... otherwise the batter would likely be protected....

[TNCoach]

Oh, I understand. We were just coming at it with two different understandings.

[ukce1861]

Thanks for the responses guys.

MLB just updated it's rules this year to clarify their take. LL may or may not choose to adopt the change some time in the future. The OBR rule now reads (changes in italics):

Rule 6.05: A batter is out when—

* * *

(g) His fair ball touches him before touching a fielder. <If the batter is in a legal position in the batter’s box, see Rule 6.03, and, in the umpire’s judgment, there was no intention to interfere with the course of the ball, a batted ball that strikes the batter or his bat shall be ruled a foul ball>;

That's a nice clarification to have. Now, how do you interpret the last part of that sentence, "a batted ball that strikes the batter"? Is this to be distinguished from a batter striking a batted ball or am I splitting hairs here?

First, in the OP yoou did well to try and let the PU take the call but in baseball we are taught to kill it immediately when seeing the ball hit the batter or visaversa. Now what I stress in clinics is to say,"TIME!" and only time. Whether the ball is foul or it is fair and an out can be determined by the PU.

Here's the problem Mike. I kill it and then what? My partner has "fair ball" so he doesn't know why I killed it. (In fairness, I didn't know he had fair when I made the decision to wait for his call.) So I say, "TIME!" and then what? I agree the PU is typically in a better position to make this call, but for some reason he didn't see anything. Now what?

If the ball is kicked then the fair part comes back into play. Either way it is the PU's call whether it is fair or foul.

What do you mean by the first sentence? But what do you do if your partner rules fair but you clearly saw the batter kick the ball?

[yawetag]

Here's the problem Mike. I kill it and then what? My partner has "fair ball" so he doesn't know why I killed it. (In fairness, I didn't know he had fair when I made the decision to wait for his call.) So I say, "TIME!" and then what? I agree the PU is typically in a better position to make this call, but for some reason he didn't see anything. Now what?

A batted ball hit a batter or runner before passing an infielder. The ball is instantly dead at this point. It's either a foul ball (batter's in the box), or someone is out (batter-runner in this case, if he's outside the box).

[ukce1861]

A batted ball hit a batter or runner before passing an infielder. The ball is instantly dead at this point. It's either a foul ball (batter's in the box), or someone is out (batter-runner in this case, if he's outside the box).

I understand that the ball is dead. But somebody's got to make a call - beyond "Time". Obviously the PU didn't see the contact or he would've killed it on his own. So if I call time, don't I have to make a call?

[noumpere]

I understand that the ball is dead. But somebody's got to make a call - beyond "Time". Obviously the PU didn't see the contact or he would've killed it on his own. So if I call time, don't I have to make a call?

No. Just call "Time." Then the PU decides foul or out. He (or she) can get you input if needed.

[yawetag]

I understand that the ball is dead. But somebody's got to make a call - beyond "Time". Obviously the PU didn't see the contact or he would've killed it on his own. So if I call time, don't I have to make a call?

Call "Time." Then get with the PU and ask what he saw. If he missed it hitting the batter, and you can't tell if the batter was in the box, give the benefit of the doubt to the batter and call it foul. If the PU or you know without a doubt the batter was outside the box, call him out on the INT and return all runners to TOP base.

[jnazz]

We had a lengthy discussion at our National clinic about this very situation (and similar situations like it). TIME (as was told to us) is the correct mechanic --- since the BU can't be sure if the BR struck the ball fair or foul. We were told that even on the ball batted into the batter's feet we are to call TIME (not dead ball or foul) so not to get into the habit as the BU calling foul. I am still having trouble adjusting to this one, since I've always called FOUL if my PU doesn't kill the play.

[ukce1861]

All right guys thanks for the advice. That's why this site is a great resource!

[mstaylor]

Sorry for being slow following threads lately. When I said to say time only I meant not to call and out or say foul. A good thing to add after time is that is off the batter. If the PU doesn't come up with out/foul then get the crew together and come up with an answer.

The corner of the box becomes fair again if the ball stops in that corner then gets kicked.