Turn back fees...

[noumpere]

As far as the fines being waived for folks that are "moving up to work higher level games", I would be interested in seeing a definition of that. So it's OK for someone to dump a high school date in order to work a college game, but what about dumping a 1A varsity game in order to work a 4A game? How about getting rid of s DH between 2 last place teams in order to work a date that will decide a conference championship? Once you start to go down that road, it seems like a pretty slippery slope to me. Edit: BTW, the new formatting for this site SUCKS!

The groups I am in define the definition of moving up and your last two examples dont meet the definition. It goes in order D1, then all other college including D2, D3, NAIA, JC, then all Varsity not matter what the size, then all underlevel. It doesnt stop all the discussion but it goes a long way to stopping most of it.

[Welpe]

In our youth ball association, we get fined and it comes out of our online pay system.

This is one of the reasons why I don't like associations handling our pay. It starts to infringe on the line of being an independent contractor a little too much for my liking.

[IABlue]

As far as the fines being waived for folks that are "moving up to work higher level games", I would be interested in seeing a definition of that.  So it's OK for someone to dump a high school date in order to work a college game, but what about dumping a 1A varsity game in order to work a 4A game?  How about getting rid of s DH between 2 last place teams in order to work a date that will decide a conference championship?        Once you start to go down that road, it seems like a pretty slippery slope to me.  Edit: BTW, the new formatting for this site SUCKS!

The groups I am in define the definition of moving up and your last two examples dont meet the definition.  It goes in order D1, then all other college including D2, D3, NAIA, JC, then all Varsity not matter what the size, then all underlevel.  It doesnt stop all the discussion but it goes a long way to stopping most of it.

And that's why it's an unfair and stupid system.Dumping a game is dumping a game, no matter what your excuse is. Saying that it's OK to dump certain games in certain circumstances but not in others is both "inconsistent" and "unprofessional", two things they tell umpires to avoid at all costs.

[mstaylor]

Not everybody has a job that they can be flexible enough to never turn a game in. I am on the BOD and even I have to do it occasionally. I work in the entertainment business which gives me a ton of flexibility but sometimes it is the opposite. If they book a show when I already have a game then I have to be there. I am the boss and I have to be there to run the operation. If a concert is scheduled on a certain day, I can't say I will come in early or make it up the next day. We do this as an avocation not a vocation so that means life can get in the way.

As far as turning games in for distance, I am in a very rural area so driving is a must for almost everything. We use Arbiter for almost every sport now and we have an option to closeout schools. If it is too far or you have a conflict,you are a teacher or what not, then you just close that school out. I used to close out about three schools that were cl;ose to three hours away. 2 hrs or less I kept them.

[yawetag]

Mike, we have travel limits in Arbiter. Set a distance you want to travel and you aren't booked outside it (unless you're manually added to a game).

[NCAAump2]

I think if you are assigned games (say through Arbiter) which you have to accept or decline, you should only be fined if you have already accepted the game THEN turn it back. I know you can block out dates and/or times, but sometimes things slip through the cracks or IOW "life happens." As far as turning games back in for a higher level games, I would think your organization would be happy you're getting games at a higher level, not penalize you for it.

[mstaylor]

As far as turning games back in for a higher level games, I would think your organization would be happy you're getting games at a higher level, not penalize you for it.

I agree if you turn it back with enough time to get it covered. Or you turn it back under the stipulation that if it can't be covered, you keep it.

[NCAAump2]

Absolutely. But considering the association I work for has over 200 members, I think they can handle it. I've never turned a game back within 48 hours, and would expect to get fined if I did unless it was some kind of extreme circumstance.

[noumpere]

And that's why it's an unfair and stupid system.Dumping a game is dumping a game, no matter what your excuse is. Saying that it's OK to dump certain games in certain circumstances but not in others is both "inconsistent" and "unprofessional", two things they tell umpires to avoid at all costs.

So if a AAA minor league umpire gets a temproary call up due to an injury he should decline it because hed have to not work his previously assigned AAA games and that would be unprofessional?

Its a system that recognizes that umpires want to move up and provides the opportunity to do so without the need to hold dates open just in case something comes along. As long as all the assigners and all the umpires know the standards up front and are open about it its both consistent and professional.

[IABlue]

And that's why it's an unfair and stupid system.Dumping a game is dumping a game, no matter what your excuse is. Saying that it's OK to dump certain games in certain circumstances but not in others is both "inconsistent" and "unprofessional", two things they tell umpires to avoid at all costs.

So if a AAA minor league umpire gets a temproary call up due to an injury he should decline it because hed have to not work his previously assigned AAA games and that would be unprofessional?

Its a system that recognizes that umpires want to move up and provides the opportunity to do so without the need to hold dates open just in case something comes along. As long as all the assigners and all the umpires know the standards up front and are open about it its both consistent and professional.

Fine, then be consistent with the system. Allow me to drop lower level HS games to move up to better ones. Where I live, there is a huge gulf between the quality of ball at the bottom of the varsity food chain and the TOP. I would even go so far as to say the gap is closer in quality of play between large school varsity and small college ball than it is between the best varsity around and the worst.

You need to have "consistency" in your guidelines and allowing a select chosen few to dump games for better assignments in certain situations, but not others, is "unprofessional."

[NWA_UMP]

We use ZebraWeb for our assigning system. We have to go out and accept games. If you decline a game...fine. If you turnback a game you better have a reason and more than 24 hours notice. We don't get fined but we are allowed one or two before it affects our future assignments. Emergencies happen and those are not held against you. Assigning is not easy and it can be a thankless job. I completely understand why assignors would asses a fee or cut games...it's more work for them.

[mstaylor]

And that's why it's an unfair and stupid system.Dumping a game is dumping a game, no matter what your excuse is. Saying that it's OK to dump certain games in certain circumstances but not in others is both "inconsistent" and "unprofessional", two things they tell umpires to avoid at all costs.

So if a AAA minor league umpire gets a temproary call up due to an injury he should decline it because hed have to not work his previously assigned AAA games and that would be unprofessional?

Its a system that recognizes that umpires want to move up and provides the opportunity to do so without the need to hold dates open just in case something comes along. As long as all the assigners and all the umpires know the standards up front and are open about it its both consistent and professional.

Talk about apples and oranges. First, AAA that are going to called up are on a list and it is part of the deal. In amateur baseball any assigner worth his salt will not stand in your way of moving up. However, you don't leave the guy in a lurch to better your assignment. You call the guy and say that you have a chance to get a better assignment, can he replace you. Most groups are assigning with Arbiter and if dump an assignment and you get a new assignment the old assigner will see it. He won't know where you are going but he will see you are assigned and what your start time is. In our area the college start times are earlier than HS so he will know. In the case of the guys that dumped HS games to cover MiLB games at the last minute, they weren't on Arbiter but you are announced on the flipping radio.

If you are above board with your assigner he will likely work with you. If you just dump games at the last minute you will likely be on his not happy list.

[noumpere]

Fine, then be consistent with the system. Allow me to drop lower level HS games to move up to better ones. Where I live, there is a huge gulf between the quality of ball at the bottom of the varsity food chain and the TOP. I would even go so far as to say the gap is closer in quality of play between large school varsity and small college ball than it is between the best varsity around and the worst.

That system would work too and might be used in some areas its just not the system that all have agreed to here. That doesnt make our system umprofessional or your proposed system professional it just makes them different.

. If you just dump games at the last minute you will likely be on his not happy list.

No one or at least not me is talking about dumping games at the last minute or not telling the assigners about it. Im talking about the expectation that a HS assigner will let you off a game with no penalty of a fine or fewer games if you get a college game and give him enough time to find a competent replacement.

[mstaylor]

Fine, then be consistent with the system. Allow me to drop lower level HS games to move up to better ones. Where I live, there is a huge gulf between the quality of ball at the bottom of the varsity food chain and the TOP. I would even go so far as to say the gap is closer in quality of play between large school varsity and small college ball than it is between the best varsity around and the worst.

That system would work too and might be used in some areas its just not the system that all have agreed to here. That doesnt make our system umprofessional or your proposed system professional it just makes them different.

. If you just dump games at the last minute you will likely be on his not happy list.

No one or at least not me is talking about dumping games at the last minute or not telling the assigners about it. Im talking about the expectation that a HS assigner will let you off a game with no penalty of a fine or fewer games if you get a college game and give him enough time to find a competent replacement.

I would agree with completely. I was talking about last minute dumps to move up.

[MidAmUmp]

I feel I'm pretty easy as an assignor. Be up front and honest with me. I consider any opportunity to move up as a great reason to turn back a game...even at the last minute. People allowed me to do it when I was moving up and I offer the same courtesy. Assignors who will not allow an umpire to move up do not deserve your services.

[dumbdumb]

I feel I'm pretty easy as an assignor. Be up front and honest with me. I consider any opportunity to move up as a great reason to turn back a game...even at the last minute. People allowed me to do it when I was moving up and I offer the same courtesy. Assignors who will not allow an umpire to move up do not deserve your services.

OK guys

Why can MAU do this with his staff and other's cannot? Why do others not feel an opportunity to move up as a great reason to turn back a game...even at the last minute.

[MidAmUmp]

I feel I'm pretty easy as an assignor. Be up front and honest with me. I consider any opportunity to move up as a great reason to turn back a game...even at the last minute. People allowed me to do it when I was moving up and I offer the same courtesy. Assignors who will not allow an umpire to move up do not deserve your services.

OK guys

Why can MAU do this with his staff and other's cannot? Why do others not feel an opportunity to move up as a great reason to turn back a game...even at the last minute.

I view it as an opportunity to move up for one umpire means an opportunity for someone else to move up to fill that spot, and so on until someone who didn't have a game gets a game that day. Win-win to me.

[dumbdumb]

I feel I'm pretty easy as an assignor. Be up front and honest with me. I consider any opportunity to move up as a great reason to turn back a game...even at the last minute. People allowed me to do it when I was moving up and I offer the same courtesy. Assignors who will not allow an umpire to move up do not deserve your services.

OK guys

Why can MAU do this with his staff and other's cannot? Why do others not feel an opportunity to move up as a great reason to turn back a game...even at the last minute.

I view it as an opportunity to move up for one umpire means an opportunity for someone else to move up to fill that spot, and so on until someone who didn't have a game gets a game that day. Win-win to me.

Just doesn't sound like everyone is on board with you, and I just wonder why things are not handled this way everywhere.

[mstaylor]

I don't have anything against a guy moving up. I don't have a problem with a last minute turnback if the guy is upfront with the assigner. I do have a problem with a guy turning a game back at the last minute with no concern if the game gets covered or not. Our assoc is not huge and in every sport there are usually one or two dates a season where everybody is working to cover games. If it is one of those days then you can't turn in a game to move up. This is what happened with the two guys that did MiLB games during the strike. They turned games in and left assignments uncovered, that can't happen. I know my assigner will bend over backwards to get a guy moved up, but you can't screw him in the process.

[yawetag]

In my association, it's not my job to find a replacement. If I were eligible for those higher-level games, I'd might find that option is there, but I've never heard of someone trying to find a replacement for their games.

[mstaylor]

In my association, it's not my job to find a replacement. If I were eligible for those higher-level games, I'd might find that option is there, but I've never heard of someone trying to find a replacement for their games.

I prefer guys not find replacements for themselves. Many times crews are put together for a reason. It may be two high level guys working a tough match up or a higher guy working with a newer guy to help him along. If you leave it to the individual umpire he may find a replacement but not one that fills the bill for the crew dynamic.

[SAB_UIC_TX]

We have a give-back/no show fine that apply to turning back games less than 24 hours before game time. The no show is pretty obvious. If you give back a game with more than 24 hours no fines. The fine is equal to the pay of the game you turned back, if you don't pay the fine you're not in good standing with the chapter.

[mstaylor]

I got fined a no show fee once in my life. It was before Arbiter and my college assigner gave a game over the phone, several actually. I wrote the wrong school down for the wrong day. The bad part was I drove by the school I was supposed to be working to get to the school I wasn't. I didn't have a problem with, I screwed up.

[Welpe]

I don't miss the days of getting assignments by phone! Between a certain assigner that was constantly double booking assingnments (I think Jim Beam or one of his friends had a hand in that) and other associated headaches it could be a real pain.

Now I always have access to the actual assigner through my phone or computer. I love it this way.

[hckyosgood30]

I'm glad that we've gotten away from paper and phone assigning. Now I just go and block my days, have the emails go to my phone,tablet, computer and just simplifies the process. Also I think it brings more accountability overall. I also love REFPAY!